what about Solar in the pickens plan ?

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Permalink Reply by Charlie Bird on September 14, 2008 at 2:52pm

I knew both Hoyt Hottel and Y.K. Pei, the original inventor of solar panels and the inventor of the Corning Glass tubular solar collector, respectively.

Excuse me. You win.

Please explain to me how nukes suffer from issues "related to" the Faustian Bargain, LOL. I was born and raised in Oak Ridge and worked at the nuclear facilities as did scores of my friends, relatives and associates. I may have even met a nuclear physicist or two. We need to build nuclear power plants now and should have never stopped.

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Permalink Reply by Dr. Paul A. Curto on September 14, 2008 at 3:11pm

Join the "nuclear power option" group discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Dr. Paul A. Curto on September 14, 2008 at 5:44pm

I knew both Hoyt Hottel and Y.K. Pei, the original inventor of solar panels and the inventor of the Owens Illinois tubular solar collector, respectively. I have news for you. No more efficient solar collector for home use has ever been designed than the Pei device. It was not only very well made and efficient, but was beautiful as well. I used it in my first design for Ryland in 1974, which produced heat, hot water, and air conditioning with nearly zero extra energy from the gas hookup to the home. About 70% of the sun's rays were converted efficiently to heating and hot water.

That system used a central wood stove and chimney for backup and heat storage. Hottel's stuff was commercialized 70 years ago, and was over 50% efficient for solar hot water.

Nobody has anything today more efficient than the Ridgecrest design for solar power generation on a large scale. By the time that the energy is delivered to each of the components of its trigeneration system, more than 80% of the sun's incident rays are utilized.

Try doubling the efficiency with any new idea. I'm afraid that over 100% is not possible.

Nukes suffer from issues related to the Faustian Bargain. They're part of the problem, not part of the solution. Enough said.

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Permalink Reply by Book Calendar on September 14, 2008 at 11:13am

I think the whole map of solar is about to change, there have been a whole slew of recent advances in magnified solar, IBM just made a breakthrough which could possibly make solar as cheap as coal. http://earth2tech.com/2008/05/16/in-the-labs-ibm-cools-solar-dirt-p...

There are other companies which have made similar breakthroughs, Sunrgi claims 5 cents per kilowatt hour for extreme concentrated solar photovoltaics.
http://www.sunrgi.com/index.html

There are other companies which are making similar claims. If they are true, solar could potentially be as cheap as coal without pollution. These represent gamechanging breakthroughs.

The problem like so many things is that the technology is not tested enough both in the market and by science and engineering.

I am hoping that magnified solar concentrating is a real breakthrough and can be brought to production soon.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on June 28, 2009 at 1:43pm

With Cap & Trade on the horizon I feel it's time to reconsider CSP-DG (Concentrating Solar Power - Distributed Generation) as the NBF (Next Big Fish). Just a few things that make CSP-DG the right choice.

1) CSP-DG is carbon free
2) CSP-DG uses existing rooftop space
3) CSP-DG needs no grid upgrades to begin saving $$$
4) CSP-DG achieves grid parity today
5) CSP-DG creates jobs that cannot be outsourced

The Light is Green!

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on July 8, 2009 at 7:04am

All 5 are true, but it appears concentrating solar power is better for new construction roofs than for existing roofs unless they need extensive rebuilding. Is there any hope of halving the cost of a typical CSP- distributed installation? Neil

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Permalink Reply by Paul on July 8, 2009 at 8:00am

Hey Neil,

Halving the cost??? Do you think $3/Watt installed is a good deal? Yes, it's possible to make these things for <$2/W, maybe even $1.50 but only if we manufacture in China, India, or the 3rd world... and compromise on the quality. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think that's the best way to build a brand.

New / Old construction isn't that big a deal for us. Since the panels only weigh about 2lb / sq.ft. we're lighter than some roofing materials. Naturally we don't want to install on an old leaky roof, but those are individual customer issues. If the building has a rubber membrane, the protection provided by the panels will extend the roof-life by protecting it from direct sunlight.

--Paul

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on July 8, 2009 at 8:43am

My neighborhood is middle class homes built 60 years ago. 4 houses share a transformer, which is fed by single phase 60 hertz at about 10,000 volts. Other nearby neighborhoods use one of the other phases of the three phase distribution system. This may be typical of houses on small lots everywhere.
If I install a 20 kilowatt DSP-distributed on my roof, on rare occasions, I will send 20kw to the secondary of the transformer. My three neighbors will likely use most of the 20 kw my system supplied, so the transformer does not have to do much and thus the transformer and 10,000 volt line losses are reduced. The power company does not need to do anything, unless all 4 of us install 20 kw CSP-distributed systems. Then the transformer would occasionally over heat supplying up to 80 kw to the 10,000 volt line.
100,000 roofs within 5 miles supplying an average of 10kw to the grid = 1000 megawatts might mean rare hot spots in the existing grid system due to more electricity than is being used in this part of the city. This is a non-problem here, due to too many tall trees making 100,000 CSP-distributed roofs impractical. The power company would hardly notice 10,000 CPS-distributed roofs in our part of the city, unless some supplied more than 20kw. Up to a megawatt is practical for some very large commercial roofs. That would need to be determined for each very large roof. Neil

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Permalink Reply by Paul on July 8, 2009 at 9:12am

Your 60yo home probably doesn't have enough roof to collect 20kW... It's also unlikely that all 4 homes will buy solar panels. There is an advantage to being first though. If the pole has a 20 kVA can (xfrmr) and you install a 20kW system, the can is at capacity. The local utility could pass the cost of a bigger can onto the 2nd person to apply for solar... Four 20's feeding 1 pole is a guaranteed fire.

But -- more likely -- you install 5kW, then 1 or 2 neighbors install 5kW and everything is hunky-dory. If neighbor #4 wants in, he's going to have to wait for a bigger can to be hung or pay for it. It could be a long wait. Pole cans have a lot of surplus capacity and a typical; home is only expected to draw 3kW on average.

I don't let any of that daunt S&T. We look at the transformer vault, and compute an optimum size for commercial units based on peak load, and available roof.

For our SC facility, we're having a 1500kW mains transformer installed. The site has 14 acres of mostly flat land bordered by more flat space, and the building is 75,000 sq ft. of unbroken rubber membrane This is going to be one hell of a demo / flagship site.

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on July 8, 2009 at 10:37pm

Hi Paul: Now I'm confused. My main breaker is 300 amps. If my 3 neighbors each have 100 amp main breakers, they can each draw 24000 watts = 24 kw for a minute or more without tripping the main breaker. I would think a 20 kw transformer would be brinkmanship, since I can draw 72kw at 240 volts. On the other hand, my draw likely never exceeds 30 kw for more than a one second surge. We do have an electric cooking range, an electric clothes drier, two window air conditioners and an old central heat pump. It is not unusual for all three air conditioners to be running.
We have about 900 square feet of South facing roof, but I suppose the CSP-distributed could also be mounted on the 1100 square foot of North facing roof, as the tilt is only about 10 degrees. Can the CSP panels go past the roof edge about one foot to gain another 100 square feet of mounting area? Neil

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Permalink Reply by Paul on July 9, 2009 at 6:49am

Hi Neil,

You can ask any *seasoned* electrician and they will explain that even though you have a 300 amp breaker, the transformer can't supply more than about 83 amps before your 240V collapses to 2/3rds of the nominal line rating -- ~160 volts RMS at the dryer or oven or air conditioner -- the classic light flicker. Now these cans are wound with heavy conductors. They can push thousands of amps thru a short circuit, but they cannot sustain that power without burning up.

Your 300 amp breakers are only designed to trip if a tree falls on your electrical panel or some other disaster befalls you. I don't recall when electricians started valuing convenience over protection, but is has become the defacto standard for behavior. I think part of it is because a big roomy 300 amp panel is easier to work in than a space efficient 100 amp panel. And the cost can passed on!

900 sq ft of roof can deliver a noontime peak of perhaps 12kW (June 21, severe clear, perfect alignment, cool breeze, etc...) the average is going to be ~ 40% of that.

Panels overhanging roof? NO NO NO!!! We don't do that. the wind will grab that lip and pull... no more shingles, no more rafters, etc...

I'm not saying a DIYer hasn't made installs like that, I just have a herd time believing that the local building inspector signed off on the job. "We don't need to steenking permits!" :^) with apologies to Mel Brooks.

--Paul

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on July 9, 2009 at 11:30am

Thanks Paul: I had wondered why the previous owner wanted 300 amps. He didn't!
Is it practical to add a dozen batteries and an inverter to seamlessly supply up to 10 kw for the typical one minute power failures of my utility? Like a UPS = uninterrupted power source for the house. What is the surge rating of your 5kw system and how many seconds is a surge? Does your alternator trip off if the line voltage drops 40% for more than one second? Once we had a one hour brown out at a steady 66 volts. I was pleasantly surprised that about half of the CFL = compact fluorescents lit almost full brightness. I unplugged the refrigerator and deep freeze, to avoid possible damage. Neil

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