How about diesel cars?

I have worked for 15 years on diesel engines for American made cars sold in Europe. Diesel technology has come a long way in those 15 years. The modern diesel powered car is quiet, no smell, outperforms gas cars, and starts well in the winter. On top of that, they get about 30% more miles on a gallon of fuel than gas cars can get. The Eruopeans love them. However, the EPA and CARB have set the NOx emissions rules so stringently that it is almost prohibitively expensive to sell diesel cars in the US market. If we lobbied our lawmakers to accept the same diesel emission limits that the Europeans accept, and if 50% of car buyers chose diesel, we would have a 15% reduction in auto fuel use with current technology. That has to make an impact on fuel prices.

Ken Goss

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ken Goss on August 14, 2008 at 1:08pm: JT,

See my comment to Seth on July 25th, just a few comments up the chain from this one.

I am not proposing diesel or even (maybe especially) bio diesel as and end all solution to our energy crisis. However, I do beleive that any massive alternative energy solution will take decades to fully implement. In the mean time, one of the crutches that could help us bridge the gap between now and a fully operational alternative energy infrastructure could be diesel. This is especially true of the heavier end of our vehicle fleet ... small commercial vehicles and larger personal vehicles.

A lot of folks are starting to say "let's do everything". I am suggesting that one of the "everythings" that we should do is to have an intelligent policy of encouraging diesel in applciations where it makes good sense.

Oh by the way, has anyone figured out why diesel is 20% higher price than gasoline?

Ken Goss; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by JT on August 22, 2008 at 1:03am: Ken,

Yes, I have. Someone IS lying... both about gasoline and diesel. Why is diesel higher when it used to be lower? Truckers have no choice. They WILL pay $4.85, and they will pass it on to us indirectly, when we go to the store to by the goods.

Notice that the oil companies cry that it's Supply & Demand, yet none of them are EVER out of oil. (Can't be too loud about that observation, or they'll just fake a shortage in order to be paid more per gallon.) It's BS. Every holiday, the gas goes up on that guise, and by Sunday noon of that supposed shortage of supply, prices are miraculously back down. I guess the new shipments arrived on Saturday?:)

The whole thing is a scam. Consider this: The cost of crude oil is a small fraction of the price paid at the pump. To keep numbers simple, let's look at this: When oil was $55 per barrel, that was $1 per gallon of crude... and gas was $1.39 at the pump. Now that crude rises to $110 per barrel ($2 per gallon,) gas at the pump should be what? $2.39... or perhaps a tad more, to allow for the additional cost of fuel used in transporting the crude and finished petroleum products. But that's still a FAR cry from $3 or $3.65 or $4 or $4.85... let alone what Europeans have been paying for years.

Interestingly enough, just 1-2 months back, a U.S. refinery in El Paso was selling gas to Mexico, just over the border, for $2.65 a gallon at the pump. That may include a small amount of government assistance and a VERY SLIGHTLY lower cost of refining (owing to Mexico's allowing more sulfur in their mix,) but those factors are nearly insignifcant. Meanwhile, at that same time, people in El Paso were paying $4.80 a gallon for the gas on the U.S. side. Interestingly enough, Mexican prices were EXACTLY what prices should have risen to, based upon the increase in cost of crude, without the profiteering done by the U.S. oil companies. As they say, follow the money.

The Arabs aren't screwing us. OPEC isn't choking us out. U.S. oil companies are doing that.. and showing BILLIONS in profits at a time when this nation is falling apart at the seams because the high prices of fuel have raised the cost of everything else as well. This is our own companies doing it to us. Follow the money. Guess who owns about 12% of Exxon Oil? Bush & family. Is it any surprise, then, that GW Bush gave auto makers carte blanche early on in his administration, overrode Clinton's requirements for fuel economy performance? He CLAIMED this was to free them up to work on solar solutions, but the result was more Hummers and Explorers and Expeditions on the road... and ole GWB is grinning all the way to the bank.

See a separate post on this thread, where I'm asking some of the gearheads about conversion realities.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Roger E. Sowell on August 22, 2008 at 5:21am: Some facts about diesel fuel production from crude oil. First, petroleum refineries make diesel fuel in two ways: one is very low-cost, the other is not. The low-cost diesel fuel is known as straight-run diesel, and is low-cost because it is a product from only two processing units. There is very little of the straight-run diesel produced, typically about five percent of the crude oil.

The high-cost diesel fuel is made from several other processing units with a much higher operating cost. The yield, or amount produced, is much higher. Some refineries can make as much as 15 to 20 percent diesel our of each barrel of crude oil. The two sources of diesel fuel are typically blended together and sold as one product.

The end result is that diesel fuel costs no more to make than gasoline, and usually less. The price differences at the retail pump is entirely due to taxes.

But, the demand for diesel is about to change, and change dramatically. Hybrid technology not only works for automobiles, it works equally well for diesel trucks. Eaton Corp. has a hybrid system for heavy trucks, which recovers energy from braking and reduces or eliminates idling. These work great for delivery trucks but not so much for long-haul big rigs. Also, GE has a hybrid drive system for locomotives.

Finally, the Jetta TDI is here, even in California.

One correction to a poster above, oil is sold in 42-gallon barrels, not 55.

We have turned a significant corner. Hybrid technology, and especially plug-in hybrids, will forever change transportation fuels. As more and more people convert their SUVs and pickups to hybrid systems, we will see gasoline and diesel prices drop.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ken Goss on August 26, 2008 at 1:06pm: Roger,

I recently read a paper by the Diesel Technology Forum that was helpful at explaining the price difference between gas & diesel.

If I summarize the paper, it looks like this:

A barrel of crude oil makes 47% gasoline and 30% diesel fuel, kerosene, jet fuel, and heating oil. The remaining 23% is other products Those percentages can be adjusted a little with refining techniques, but not very much.

Fuels are a global commodity and prices react to global supply and demand
Globally, the demand for diesel is rising faster than the demand for gasoline because of several factors. Some of these are:

1) In Europe, passenger cars continue to shift from gasoline to diesel

2) In Brazil, their commercial truck fleet which runs on diesel is growing while gasoline demand is stable due to the fact that they use alcohol for their passenger car fleet.

3) In emerging markets like China and India, the economies are growing rapidly, so the demand for diesel fuel to move commercial goods by truck is growing rapidly. However, the auto fleet which runs on gasoline is not growing as rapidly due to availability of mass transit & lack of good highways.

4) Temporarily, China is running their electrical grid on diesel power instead of coal to reduce pollution during the Olympics

5) Temporarily, US consumers are reacting to high gasoline prices by reducing their miles driven

Several refiners are making the investments needed to shift more of the crude oil to diesel fuel production, and some of the temporary situations will disappear. So, the price gap between gas & diesel may reduce a little in the next year or two, but long term it can be expected to continue to grow as demand for diesel continues to grow more rapidly than the demand for gasoline.

Ken Goss; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Roger E. Sowell on September 26, 2008 at 8:59am: Ken,

Your numbers for product yields are not far off, on the average, and given today's crude oil and refining set up. The actual yield of gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel can be significantly changed by refinery configuration and operation. Specifically, more gasoline can be produced in a refinery with a Fluid Catalytic Cracker, and more diesel can be produced in a refinery with a Hydrocracker. Where a heavier crude is the feed, a delayed coker or resid hydrocracker can convert the heavy fuel oil into lighter oil that is then fed into either the FCC or the Hydrocracker.

Your points on gasoline / diesel trends are interesting. Things may turn out that way. On the other hand, I believe that recent innovations in heavy-duty hybrid power trains will significantly decrease diesel demand for the next few years. Wheel motors with generating ability are just one technology being used. Locomotives with hybrid technology to recover energy lost to braking are another. These improvements should reduce diesel demand, or greatly slow the rate of increase.

The other parts of the hybrid technology are coming along. Batteries are improving by leaps and bounds. ExxonMobil just announced a major breakthrough in automotive batteries for hybrid or pure EV. These will likely be useful in diesel hybrids, too.

Researchers at University of Texas in Austin just announced a major improvement in ultracapacitor technology, that will allow double the energy storage in the same size and weight.

Finally, CNG is displacing diesel fuel in many applications where air quality is a major concern. Southern California is a case in point. CNG hybrid vehicles are being mandated because they produce essentially zero pollutants.

At the same time, one refining company in Southern California, Alon, has a $300 million project in the works to do exactly as you wrote, add processing capability to an existing refinery to make more diesel. This project is to be operational in 2011, if environmental permits are granted.

It will be interesting to see if their project proceeds, and if it does, whether there is a market for the diesel in 2011.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Vin Coniglione on September 7, 2008 at 3:39pm: Almost 3 years ago I decided diesel was the way to go an purchased a 2006 VW Jetta diesel. At that time diesel was 10-20% less than gasoline. Even with diesel now being more expensive than gasoline, my cost per mile is much lower than a comparable car with a gas engine. I get 43-46 MPG on a regular basis, mixed city/highway driving. The only thing on the road that beats me is the Prius. If things keep getting more expensive, I also have the option of making bio-diesel or converting to burn waste vegetable oil.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeff Smoley on September 27, 2008 at 8:57pm: Just think of the MPG if auto makers had the brains to make a diesel/electric hybrid rather than continue to use a gasoline engine.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeff Smoley on September 27, 2008 at 8:50pm: I have posted this in other areas on Pickensplan, but will add this here:
There is new technology for vehicles, from cars to trucks available now, either in prototype or production that will greatly help with our energy issues. CNG is a so-so solution, due to the massive, heavy tank needed to contain the 3600 PSI needed to get any range at all.
My proposed solution uses the following technologies, all posted in various places.
#1. A light weight, ceramic, rotary diesel cycle, multi-fueled engine. Doesn't need cooling or lubrication! It can run on diesel fuel, bio-diesel, CNG, propane, alcohol or various combinations.
#2. A light weight ceramic generator.
#3. A small light weight steam type rotary engine that will run off the exhaust heat (not gas pressure) of the diesel engine (this will power another ceramic generator).
#4. Light weight, high efficiency, flat electric motors.
#5. The new light weight, high energy density lithium batteries from Stamford.
#6. Optionally, the paint on or spray on, thin film photo-voltaics to help charge the batteries when the vehicle is in daylight.
#7. Optionally, plug in charging.

Using plug in charging, photo-voltaics and alternative fuels, these vehicles (heavy trucks) should get over 100 MPG when running using the fueled engines to charge batteries and run the electric engines. This means 100 MPG is the worst case MPG. One reason for these savings is the vehicle will be much lighter. The motor/generator section without the additional steam section would range between 150 to 250 pounds (compare this to a present truck diesel and transmission. The batteries would be about 350 pounds and the electric motors about 260 pounds (for 4 of them). Heavy trucks could use 6 electric motors, and two could be unpowered, depending on load and hills, etc. Add regenerative braking and the MPG picture is even better.
I have attempted contacting every US auto maker and John Deere, without success. Deere Co. was the only one to respond, asking me to fill out a non-disclosure agreement, obviously not reading my entire e-mail.
I have no financial interest in any of the companies that make these products, I just put 2 + 2 together. That is what engineers do.
So, if anyone has a contact at a US auto maker, please pass this on to them. All I ask in return is one free van type vehicle every 7 years, if they think this is appropriate. They can also use my name as the person who thought this up, or not. Any other compensation is at their will. I would rather get nothing and have these vehicles built than make millions and still have to drive what is available today. Please don't tell non-US auto makers about this until we have exhausted all attempts with the US makers.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ray Phillips on October 10, 2008 at 6:20pm: I just read this article about what Volvo is doing. One of the interesting things is a Diesel-Eectric hybrid. They are also talking about a plug in hybrid. The story is on the link below.

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/News/Story/2008/10/Volvo-Cars-Prese...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by michael sondgeroth on October 10, 2008 at 10:38pm: that seems to make sence to me , i know theres new ways to make diesel to run cleaner now , good thought

i have another thought too that chysler tried in the 50s all the way to the 802 is the turbine engine it runs on just about anything , i saw the 101 cars to drive show ,i liked that car ,; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Colt Lewis on October 12, 2008 at 12:35pm: I totally agree the diesel engines are great. Have you ever heard of Dimethyl Ether? It works as a great diesel alternative whether mixed with petro-diesel or bio-diesel. The fact of the matter is ethanol can not help diesel engines the way ether can. Ether can be made from syngas, so it is easy and economical to make.

Talk about future!!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ray Phillips on November 21, 2008 at 4:52pm: Even Porche is working with diesel technology. Note that the Cayenne may soon be a hybrid as well.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/porsche-cayenne-diesel.html; ▶ Reply to This