Working with Al Gore's Plan
I have been reading about Al Gore's speech yesterday outlining his plan to completely convert all electric energy to renewable resources. Pickens has made a statement that he and Gore have differing objectives. Even so, I think that these two plans could work well together. I would like to encourage Mr. Pickens to work with Al Gore and see if his windmill project can fit with Al Gore's measures. I have joined Al Gore's group, as well and will encourage the same thing, there.
The more these groups and plans work together, the bigger the army will be and the more powerful our voice and actions.
The more these groups and plans work together, the bigger the army will be and the more powerful our voice and actions.
Tags: Al, Gore, energy, renewable, teamwork
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ittybitty on -
You are co-mingling a hell of a lot of concepts, not all of which are co-migleable.
If every home in the USA installed a 4kw (not very large and not very expensive - about the same cost as a new Toyota Carola) PV grid-tied system on their roof tomorrow, and the local utility company's grid was computerized to properly utilize the power generated by said PV systems, the coal producers would go out of business the very next day. It's true. The US could easily generate 3/4 of it's domestic electricity needs using decentralized PV on individual properties. People are doing it every day! PV companies can't put the systems up fast enough.
And what the hell does that have to do with taxes? The lady in Hawaii pays taxes just like every body else. If you read the whole blog you will find that she made a wise financial decision to buy land off-grid at a substantial savings and pocket the $60k or so the power company wanted to run a line to connect her property. She then installed self-sustaining water and power systems. No doubt her property was REASSESSED HIGHER once she constructed her improvements!!!!
Does she pay her fair share to fund for the war for oil in Iraq? who knows! Her income tax is her business.
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Permalink Reply by ART005 on -
I did not suggest anything contrary to anything you said about the situation in Hawaii. You can recompare to sort out your misunderstandings. It does not speak well for your credibility to repeat what I said and then say I didn't say it.....
As for PV poly-sil. First a little encouragement and then a big disaggreement. My home is 1700 ft^2 and would supply it's electric power with a 2 kWp system. To power my future geothermal ground source heat pump I would need the 4kWp.
So far so good. Now the problem. My current electric bill is $25/mo for what could be supplied by the 2kWp system (240 kWhr/mo.) The monthly payment of a 30 yr loan for the PV (my research says $19,900 installed) would be $120/mo. More than 4 times my current cost. If the PV system lasts 30 years with no maintenance with no reduced performance (they actually do age you know) then it would take an annual energy inflation rate of 11% to justify the PV over its lifetime. I have offered a very thorough Solar PV calculator for people to investigate their own options. The link is below.
So that is the issue. The tree hugger solution is for people to pay 4 times more for electricity. Why don't we just slow cars down to 15 mph so it takes 4 times longer to get somewhere, and how abour raising the cost of food 4 times to solve some other problem? People are loosing their homes due to finances and your suggestion is to quadruple everyone's power bill.
This is my outrage at Gore filling people's heads with lies about solutions that aren't solutions. Regardless of what beneficial things he might ever say, he is knowingly lieing to people such to mislead them.
Again here is the PV calculator link. It was carefully developed from extensive install info from companies in CA and Ohio.
http://push.pickensplan.com/group/APriori/forum/topic/show?id=21870...
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Permalink Reply by Frank on -
The problem is you are ignoring the impact of technological advances. If the government properly funded research, PV (or just about any alternative) would be more efficient and cheaper to produce. An Apollo style program would work, and it would be better than continuing to invest in a dying infrastructure that will take us down with it if we allow it.
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Permalink Reply by Peak Dad on -
So there it is. Our choice is clear. Gore? Pickens? or Frank?
Obviously, all three are going to have to inspire the masses to overcome the powerful political and economic headwinds. With time running out, I will quickly summarize the credentials of two of the three.
Gore - former VP of US, huge current following, including many in powerful places.
Pickens - Billionaire Oil Man, huge reserves of capital and experience, also with tight connections to the powerful.
Frank - will you please fill this section in for us?
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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How does what I said disagree with Picken's or Gore's plans? They both support solar power, and I said investing in research would make PV technology more efficient and cheaper to produce.
You are seriously reading way too far into what I said.
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Permalink Reply by Peak Dad on
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Frank, I can see how I might have misread what you said. My response was rather rude in that case.
Please accept my apology. -
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Permalink Reply by ART005 on
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Frank, could you explain a little more? The gov has been using solar to power space vehicles and such for a long time so they have supported their vested interest so some extent. And if PV has technology improvements in its future than at some point the calculator will say Bingo, time to install. Massive installations before then only limit future resources when things are more equitable.
Just because PV "works" doesn't mean lack of research is the reason it doesn't work better. Consider all the careful horse breeding through history and yet still no 100 mph horse.
I am not an electrical engineer or physicist but it's possible PV poly-sil has come about as far as it's going to get (it's 30+ year old technology) or maybe with enough time there is another 25% to 50% to go. But that is only just making it into viable. Other materials/methods are being evaluated, I hope there is progress. In the last 5 years the competing costs of materials along with efficiency improvements have led to the net cost of poly-sil being pretty constant. Projecting its progress at the current rate does not speak well for $/kWhr coming down by 50% as needed.
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Permalink Reply by Frank on
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Okay, point taken. My point is not necessarily that the government isn't researching technologies, but not doing enough in comparison to other expenses.
It just bothers me when people on here are so sure of themselves when blaming solely liberal sources of this problem. So many people feel the need to vehemently insult the integrity of every prominent liberal, while every conservative is just looking out for the little guy. It is so Goddamn ridiculous. I lean towards the left end of the spectrum, but I'm not blind. I'm not accusing you personally, this is just the mentality that I'm trying to challenge.
To work my way back to the point, how much money has been wasted in Iraq? This money could have been invested in an energy solution we could already be implementing. So why is it the liberals' fault for not drilling? Why isn't it the neoconservatives' fault for starting an illegal war of aggression? Pointing fingers and questioning political affiliation does not solve anything. We are all Americans, and we will find a solution as long as we quit questioning each others motives.
I believe firmly in the ingenuity of the American people. If the government would subsidize, without political interference, solving this problem, a solution would be found. Currently, there are two designs for fusion reactors that could be proven on a real world scale in only a few years for less than $1b each. How is this not deserving a part of the budget? Take $2b from government oil subsidies and divert them towards these programs, both of which I believe are already (miserly) funded by the DoD. The one design (Polywell) could have already been working had it not been for the invasion of Iraq. The DoD halted the project and resumed it only just recently, with a much lower budget. Getting either one of these devices to work, which may be possible in 10 years even on their current budgets, would revolutionize the generation of electricity. They won't even require electrical generators. The fusion process creates electrons which flow directly into the grid. The technology will work someday; the physics is there, it's just a matter of how hard we're willing to make it happen.
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Permalink Reply by ittybitty on
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If you pay $25 a month for electric than you must A) be extremely energy efficient or B) have a really cheap rate. I live in a smaller home and pay four times your monthly amount and I have all energy star appliances. But the FACT is that the price is dropping on PV as it's efficiency goes UP. NASA already uses PV cells on space craft that absorb four frequencies of radiation, not the single frequency that is currently available commercially.
In many cases, without a subsidy, PV would NOT be cost effective. But NOBODY likes to figure in the cost of moving every coastal city inland should we continue to release greenhouse gasses.
PV energy generation emits ZERO greenhouse gasses. Can't say that for coal, NG or oil.
So if the question is an economic one, than it's simple. Calculate the TRUE cost of greenhouse gas pollution and slap that cost onto fossil fuels. THEN your PV system will look a lot better on the balance sheet.
AND.....
Slowing down cars 15 mph would NOT increase travel time by 4 times. Not sure what the highway system is like where you live, but here in the mid-Atlantic during rush hour on the interstate, its go 75 mph for a few miles, then slow down to 20 for a few miles, then speed up to 75 again and so-on. If the Baltimore Beltway's speed limit of 55 mph was enforced, it would reduce fuel consumption by a much larger percentage that it would delay travel.
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Permalink Reply by ittybitty on
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You also forgot to figure in your FUTURE energy costs to power you geothermal heat pump and any price escalation from you current energy supplier.
Here in MD with Federal and State subsidies, I can get a 4kw system for about $12 k. Once the PV is up and running, you are IMMUNE from electricity cost escalations for the life of the system (30-40 years).
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Permalink Reply by ART005 on
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You're just not doing a very good job keeping up. Creating controversy that doesn't exist, not processing what's printed, it's tiresome:
Not only did I mention energy inflation multiple times, I printed the results, I've incorporated it into the spreadsheet I've shared with Pickens Plan. You are just ranting along meaninglessly.
My solar calculator evaluates installed grid-tie Poly-sil systems. I've said that over and over. (You're now starting to hint at different PV technologies as I kind of bait and switch to justify Poly-sil.) CA and Ohio companies were involved in developing it to make sure the results didn't just cater to one part of the county. It is the only calculator I've ever seen that allows a consumer to open their electric bill and determine a PV cost option. Any subsidies can be entered. And where do you think those subisidies come from? The value of the system is determined from the installed cost prior to subsidies. It does not become more valuable depending on who pays for it.
I listed my electric demand and costs. lf you don't know whether that is cheap or efficient I guess you don't know how to read those numbers. Elec. cost rates by state are published on the web, you can look yours up for national comparison. Mine is a little below average.
I am done fixing your posts!!
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