What do real people really want from solar?

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Permalink Reply by michael maldonado on April 8, 2009 at 11:12am

ummmm! I just got my tax cut Apri 1st and Obama is the first green president in History. You get a middle class tax cut also. Why should I join a tea party?

I hope you dont want a repeat of the last 8 years?

You keep protecting big oil and I'll try to figure out how to put Solar panels on my roof. Solar is a great idea we all just can't afford it. To bad.

MIKE.

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Permalink Reply by michael maldonado on April 8, 2009 at 3:46pm

Oh my god, I'm tired of getting all the junk mail by the Rush Limbaugh ditto heads with the you-tube videos. If I didn't know any better rush convinced you that the last 8 years didn't even happen. Anyway, whatever floats your boat.

I got a tax cut and am now getting more money in my pocket. We all noticed it on todays check. You got a tax cut also

I guess Rush told you to continue calling the Democrat (President Obama) a tax & Spend Liberal. Well, that boat dont float no more but Like I said, whatever floats your boat. Have your tea party but also enjoy the more pay in your pocket with the middle class tax cut. It's about time.

OH! and tell Rush to come up with some new ideas. Rather than throwing out all those you-tube videos that everyone delete's anyway.

BACK TO THE SUBJECT MATTER:


I have just been talking about how Solar power is way out of reach from "REAL PEOPLE" like you and me. Nobody can afford it.


Take a deep breath and stop calling people idiot's

MIKE

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Permalink Reply by Dave baragona on April 8, 2009 at 10:48am

I've come to realize that Americans are not interested in anything that has an ROI of 5 years or more.

Americans want a payback of a few months or less.

They can't see beyond next month's expenses....

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Permalink Reply by Dave baragona on April 9, 2009 at 10:50am

The only way I can think of to break this attitude is to lead by example.

If some of us invest in green technology with an expected ROI, a few people may take notice and follow suit.

If that happens maybe we can build up some momentum.....

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Permalink Reply by Rene Norton on April 16, 2009 at 12:44pm

THINK SMALLRural living -
I just want to pump water _ when the lights go out, I still want a shower....
come up with an entry system that I can buy at Sears, or Walmart.

Net meetering would be cool.
It would also be nice if this entry system could be expandable to back up refrigeration..
Here in the south we can do without hot water heaters...
We still NEED RUNNING WATER!

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Permalink Reply by Rene Norton on April 16, 2009 at 12:40pm

Rural living -
I just want to pump water _ when the lights go out, I still want a shower....
come up with an entry system that I can buy at Sears, or Walmart.

Net meetering would be cool.
It would also be nice if this entry system could be expandable to back up refrigeration..
Here in the south we can do without hot water heaters...
We still NEED RUNNING WATER!

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Tomlinson on May 6, 2009 at 5:45pm

I am new to the industry.
Firstly, there's a huge difference between the performance of (and claimed performance of) the different types of solar collectors out there in the market. Everybody knows that tubes are better that flat plates and Kingspan's THERMOMAX are the Worlds Highest performaning solar collectors tubes available today.
Very high performing systems, correctly designed and installed make a massive difference to peoples energy bills and WILL pay for themselves in just a few yeras (and I'm not just talking of those with pools) as well as reducing carbon which is one of the reasons why we should be installing it...right? and yet it still appears to me that too much emphasis is put on payback periods instead of moral duty and care for the environment. Does anyone ask, 'what is the payback of my car?' No they don't, because they know that a car gets them from A to B and thats what's neaded.
Solar.....it's a 'no brainer surely?.
see www.kingspansolar.com

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Permalink Reply by Paul on May 7, 2009 at 8:40am

Hi Jeff,

Interesting... moral duty? If that was the case I'd be selling residential units like hot-cakes. I have yet to talk to a single person who was ready to but because it is the morally correct thing to do. {sorry dude}

Payback has been, and will continue to be, the primary motivator for 99% of the purchases of renewable energy. Of the 1% of the folks that are out there with more $$$ than common sense -- meaning they could fund the development and purchase the systems with pocket change -- I've yet to find a single one that allows his/her moral compass to influence the decision based on payback. Sad but true.

So are you ready to boggle my mind and become part of the 1%???

The Light is Green!

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Permalink Reply by Gregory L. Smith on May 23, 2009 at 1:15pm

First of all, the public wants more education on solar capabilities. What can it do, and what can't it do? I know, but most people do not. If people want to be free from losing their power during brown-outs or storms, shouldn't that be a major consideration on how that can be achieved? Where are we really with batteries and back up generators? Is there still a possibility that they could cause islanding effects? How do we get what we want, while still paying for the system to last 30 years, when places like Oklahoma have such high humidity, that systems can fail in as little as 8 years! It isn't the heat, but the water under the glass that denegrates the solar cells and clouds them until they are nearly useless. Shouldn't there be some way to study the effects on panels in Oklahoma without waiting for some company to create a study program? Where are the Universities in studying solar? That is why solar isn't big in Oklahoma. Instead Gas companies like OneOK and ONG and other gas producers like Duke Energy are still stiffling any use of solar power, by controlling the legislature and the rules within the Corporation Commission. What we want from Solar is what we want out of every fuel system. Those are reliability, low maintenance, fair costs per Kwh, and long service of components, with checkups at least every five years. If modernization occurs, then the system should be offered upgrades at a significant savings. If the system fails at no fault of the homeowner, shouldn't the installer provide replacement costs, based on the warranties of the component systems, without the homeowner having to foot any part of the bill, excluding some new additions to enhance new changes? Finally, the system should look good and work like it was promised. Otherwise the sales will fall and people will be stuck with inventories they can't sell. These are the drawbacks for solar. But the advantages of having power in a storm period are more than just convenient, they can save lives if a tornado is spotted, but power is out. Most people do not own a battery powered radio for weather and TV shows more information when the power is still on! That is what Oklahomans want anyway... Costs up front? Yeah, they hurt some, but if the financing is good, it can work out fairly easily. Now, just get some jobs that can sustain such efforts and the state will be ready for full-effort marketing. Without clear expectations and safety issues resolved, Solar will lag the nation when it should be King in Oklahoma and Arizona. Both states need to establish legal issues of Installation and Technology certifications.
Without them they are not eligible for tax refunds and reductions.
Gregor Smith gregors@att.net

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on May 23, 2009 at 9:06pm

I'm not in the industry, never was. I'm long retired from electronics and science, but I have an active interest. My home is not suitable for wind or solar because of the shade from many tall trees. In theory, I could produce methane from leaves and twigs, and I suppose my neighbors would donate some garbage and clippings. Does any one know where I can get a tiny sample cheap of an organism that makes the methane? Will Ridex for septic tanks work?
If I was building a house and was brave enough to be my own contractor, I would build the south side of the house about 23 feet tall and 50 feet wide, transparent, except the bottom 3 feet. The innerwall is also transparent except the bottom 2 feet. In between instead of insulation would be water, with algae and nutrients, such as potassium, nitrogen and phosphorous. Carbon dioxide would bubble in at the bottom = the flue gas from my wood stove. A fan would return the gases to the bottom for several trips though the algae. Hopefully this would keep the algae at about 100 degrees f, when it is cold outside during the long winter nights.
Since I live in Florida, the algae will get too hot most afternoons, so I need wide eves to shade the algae at 1pm daily, late spring and early summer.. This reduces algae oil production, but it would be much too costly to use a heat pump to keep the algae at about 100 degrees f. Does anyone know how Valcent and Sapphire keep their algae from over heating spring and summer afternoons?
An hour before I add fuel to my diesel car, I use coffee filters to separate some of the algae from the water. I return the water to the system as it contains the nutrents. I crush the algae between rollers, or possibly use a food chopper. Both may be best. I put the crushed algae in a tall container that is transparent near the top, and wait until the algae oil rises to the top. I drain off the oil though coffee filters into my vehicle fuel tank. Since it rarely cools below 30 degrees f where I live, I likely do not need to add methanol which might damage my vehicle engine. Would ethanol thin the oil and prevent solidifying on the rare cold nights?
I suppose I need an outside wood stove to produce carbon dioxide in the late spring and summer when I would not want to run my inside wood stove, not even some winter afternoons. This outside wood stove could preheat my hot water for the house as I want the flue gas to be cool when the algae is already at about 100 degrees f. Unfortunately the heat exchanger will plug with tar and goo from the wood stove, especially if I burn pine, peat, or soft coal instead of hard wood. Any suggestions? Neil

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Permalink Reply by neil cox on May 23, 2009 at 10:48pm

I have about a dozen lead acid batteries which I charge about once per month = not quite often enough for long life. One 115 amp hours battery is mostly worthless after only 3 years of very rarely discharged. I suspect most of them have lost about half of their amp hour capacity and about half their cranking amp capacity. I have about 6 each 12 volt, 12 amp hour batteries we retired from our scooters which we take to theme parks such as magic kingdom.
I have another dozen that are almost worthless, I keep outside and charge at about 0.003 amps several days per week. No load voltage is 9 to 12 volts. It should be at least 13 volts. A few of them will be 13 volts for a few hours after charging at 1/3 amp with my 5 watt PV panel. Typically they return only about 1% of the charging energy = extremely low efficiency. The 9 and 10 volt batteries likely have one shorted cell out of the 6 cells in a 12 volt lead acid battery. The inside batteries have been useful when the power company fails, sometimes for several hours.
If you decide to do it your self PV = photovoltaic, start out small so your errors won't cost a lot.
Another option is concentrating solar. Professionally installed $75,000 and up = way out of my price range, but the system supplies most of your electricity, most of your hot water and a small part of your home heating, if you have a very favorable location for solar. In theory it could compress refrigerant for your refrigerator, deep freeze and air conditioning, but I don't think this is available for homes, and is way beyond the talents of most do it yourselfers. Some of these systems use anhydrous ammonia = NH3 which is a dangerous chemical. Neil

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Permalink Reply by Anachronism on July 19, 2009 at 9:40am

Your asking about the ideal solar powered solution? Passive solar heating is the quickest and least expensive solution. Using 4 hours of your time or your friends time and knowledge of "Simple" work you can heat your home for next to nothing for the rest of your life. BUT if your have $20,000 or so to invest in the sun panels and associated controls and the $100 per hour to have it installed, install these panels. BUT if you are typical home owner, you don't have $20,000 bouncing around in your pocket that you can "give away" and HOPE IT ACTUALLY PAYS BACK your investment? IF you unable to spend 4 hours and $125 to create a proven method to HEAT your home for FREE, you need to set down and decide HOW YOU ARE GOING TO CREATE $20,000 TO INVEST IN YOUR ROOF PANELS AND THEN FIRURE OUT THE PAYBACK TIME FRAME. A passive solar HEATING system HAS NO PROBLEM RETURNING A PORTION OF YOUR INVESTMENT MONEY EVERY DAY AND FOREVER ! Anachronism. The complete list of pieces to create you individual SOLAR HEATING SYSTEM is enclosed:
FROM ANACHRONISM:
Enclosed are instructions to install into your home attic a simple means of SOLAR PASSIVE HEATING. THIS is exactly what I used in my first project in 1984 in Burlington Washington. Information as follows: created: November 15, 2008—Hey everybody the following is direct—SIMPLE- WORKS—and YOU CREATE “Free Heat” forever! I have used the same system for 25 years to heat a commercial building with the same cubic feet of VOLUME of “10”—2000 SQ. FEET HOMES! The daily cost, USING the system defined is $1 per day to maintain 70+ degrees 365 days per YEAR, in other words $365 dollars to heat 10 homes of space in one building with original cost of less then $100 in 1984.
1. Simple math. $100 investment to install my original Passive system
2. After 9125 days we saved $3 per day to totally heat project. (This building volume equals, 10 –2,000 Sq. Ft. (homes)
3. SAVED $27,375 dollars in HEAT COSTS.
4. The return on original investment 27,375 %. What ROI have you received on your $100 you placed in your savings account in 1984?

I'm constantly reading about the need to consider the "application of Solar Panels to create electricity", so the following information maybe irrelevant, BUT it makes since to consider the actual fact that "IF" you have an "ATTIC" in your home "YOU OWN A PERSONAL SOLAR HEATING SYSTEM" and it sure makes sense to use it to "HEAT YOUR LIVING QUARTERS" AND THE MONEY SAVED, which "Anachronism" has proven for "25 Years" will help you save and "Purchase" your SOLAR ARRAY!

"SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS FOR BASEBOARD ELECTRIC HEATING" WITHOUT FURANCE UNIT AND OR "WITH FORCED AIR SYSTEM'S!"
1-When and before you enter your attic space, make sure you have proper light to observe all elements of your attic and the area where you will work.
2-You must use safe working planks to safely span the work area (Your attic is probably the structure that contains the insulation, wiring, heat ducts and other elements of the ceiling structure) so that you.
"DO NOT DAMAGE ANY OF YOUR FINISHED INTERIOR STRUCTURE".
3-If you have a "Downdraft" furnace system with the return air piping going to your current heating system, you want to enter this duct air return as close to the furnace as possible.
4-The closer to the main suction point, more Passive Heat is "Pulled into" your house.
5-Start your upper suction position of the intake pipe at least 24" to 30" to draw from the "Hottest" collection point in the typical pitched roof area inside.
6-If needed, insert a short piece of metal duct work into the new suction pipe to keep the flexible unit from sucking in and blocking the entering position in your attic.
7-Carefully attach to furnace "Suction pipe" and keep it straight and proceed to the position where you enter the "return air line", use suitable adaptor when attaching into the furnace "return air ducting" of your existing furnace system.
8-Pick a location for your "Remote" sensor control inside your home and connect the wiring to the sensor inside your attic located at a distance of 36" to the side of your new intake pipe and level with the pipe opening located in the attic. ( Continued)
9-Follow instruction with the sensor and connect your wiring from the attic remote sensor to the "Sensor" unit.
10-Attach low voltage (dual wire) from the sensor to the connection block of furnace in the same positions your house or current interior thermostat is currently connected.
11-CONSULATE LOCAL ELECTRICAN IF NEEDED TO HOOK UP THESE LOW-VOLTAGE WIRES IF NECESSARY OR ANY WIRING!
12- Make sure to support the new pipe with suitable material and DON'T crush ANY of your air pipes.
13-Make sure the connection into your current intake pipe is airtight and don't damage either piping.
14-NOW you need to close any current ATTIC venting openings in the gable ends to "CREATE YOUR PASSIVE SOLAR HEATER". Understand that this is legal as you have now "CREATED A POSITIVE ATTIC REMOVAL SYSTEM OF HEATED AIR"
15-Go to the, "10", photo's on "Anachronism" page (In the Picken's Plan on the web) and notice my designed "Intake" opening are located at the topside of the "attic ceiling structure". This allows the "COMPLETE ATTIC AREA" serve as the solar collector unit.
16-"ATTENTION, ELECTRICAL BASEBOARD METHOD"
Follow steps# 1,2,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,
(IF you don't have a forced air furnace and currently use electric baseboard heaters you need to pick a location in your ceiling of the room that allows the most "equalized" location to bring your attic heat into your home or a specific room)
If needed, add a SECOND PIPE AND ANOTHER SUCTION MOTOR "OR" USE A CIRCULATION FAN FROM THE ROOM (to spread the heat) WHERE YOUR PASSIVE SYSTEM DELIVERS YOUR ATTIC HEAT INTO YOUR LIVING SPACE. (YOU WANT "VOLUME" OF AIR INTO YOUR HOME SO DO NOT USE SMALLER INTAKE PIPE.) OPTION--Control volume flow with a "Speed Control" switch.
Understand that you could remove "all the solar heat from your attic", if temperature are cooler and no sun on your roof. "SUN CREATES YOUR HEAT", subject to the conditions that occurred in "BURLINGTON".

"No sun/no heat? " (Read what actually occurred in Burlington on 12/23/1984 on the occasion of first operation, it was snowing with a 3" accumulation of SNOW on roof, cloudy and 22 deg. outside and "SIMPLY" "produced FREE" 65 degree heat!
Look up on Internet (http://push.pickensplan.com/profile/Anachronism)
17-Your pick of a location that equalizes the distribution within the room and, "if needed" use a metal or plastic pipe with holes around the pipe to cause the air to disperse and direct downward to the floor area. You figure out this problem to fit your house. (You can simply direct airflow to floor, you decide)
18. Use the defined "In line Suction Motor" and consult your local electrician to make the electrical connections to this motor and use a suitable electrical switch to the "Remote Sensor" to make automatic or simply use a wall switch to operate this "In line Suction Motor" by hand.
"You decide whether you want automatic or manual control of the passive Solar Heating system?"
19-Trim out the inside "exhaust opening" to a neat and clean appearance to finish the job.
20-You have created "YOUR OWN" Passive Solar Heating System! Remember you "MUST" have outside air movement into the attic space from either the eaves or at the bottom of the gable ends or the vents under the eaves to allow "OUTSIDE" air to enter the attic space to allow your system to function. (NOTICE the specific location on each of my project's "Attic Air intakes" as I designed, built and controlled every aspect to create workable Passive solar projects.)

Part #'s from Lowe's—Dated as 08/19/08 (Parts & Pricing)
ITEM DESCRIPTION Vendor
QTY. Price
82361 8" x 60", GALV Pipe 1-08050 1 9.94
185010 8" Duct Fan (Sun court) DB208 1 29.93
36441 8"x 25' Black Ins. Duct (R4.2) BPC825 1 38.69
77405 6"x 25 Black Ins Duct (R-6) BPC625R6 1 25.98
USE THE SIZE PIPE OR MOTOR YOU WANT TO USE

FOR "TWENTY YEARS" I have actually "PASSIVELY SOLAR COOLED
AND PASSIVELY SOLAR HEATED MY PROJECT IN VANCOUVER", so I guess it's "IMPOSSIBLE" to accomplish that without using a commercial
Air-conditioning SYSTEM capable of "COOLING " "225,330 CUBIC FEET OF
VOLUME? The volume of this mini-storage project EQUALS THE CUBIC
FEET OF, "15", 2000 Square Foot homes.
Notice the "EXTREME COST INVOLVED IN THE OPERATION OF THIS SYSTEM? The original installation cost is irrelevant as the cost of FIRSTYEAR operation costs are shown below for Mount Vernon and Vancouver Projects:
220,668 Cubic Feet of space Mt Vernon/ Natural Gas equaled $1.47 PER DAY.
220,668 Cubic Feet of space Vancouver/ Natural Gas equaled $1.54 PER DAY.
157,700 Cubic Feet of space Burlington / Natural Gas equaled $1.17 PER DAY.

Typical 36 x 60 house=2160 x 8=17,300 Cu. Ft or 9 to 12 homes being heated for the cost of $.0039 per day to TOTTALY HEAT YOUR HOME!

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