Hydrogen Power
Why can't we bring together 4 or 5 Billionaires to form a consorsium to develope affordable hydrogen power for cars and homes and businesses. Hydrogen power is developed but not economically. If the government offers this consorsium exclusive rights to produce the affordable hydrogen engine for cars and hydrogen power for homes and business for approx. 5 years (exclusive rights), which would be a great incentive to solve the problem.
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on -
I don't know how to debate something with someone who refuses to listen to the other sides comments. See answers below you comments to my comments.
The estimates are that each FCX costs Honda over $500,000. So, how do you propose that Honda get the $300,000-$400,000 fuel cell down to a price that you can afford?
Prototype models and production models are completely different things. As stated several time in replies the execs at Honda and Gm say both will be = priced to production gasoline models when mass produced. What do you think the first prototype prices were on the Telsa, Volt or any others you mentioned?
My hometown is 250 miles from where I live in Texas and I couldn't drive my $150,000 car to show it off.
Is this a daily drive? Weekly? Monthly? 1-2 times a year? So, I'm assumoing your hometown has a Hydrogen refueling station? If not, then you are even more stuck than with a Tesla Roadster. Or maybe you are planning on carrying a fuel can full of Hydrogen along?
We will have a network of fueling locations that will start in College Station, followed by DFW area, then working our way in all directions from there at 100 to 150 mile radius. It doesn't matter how often I go home, the point is I couldn't in your comparison.
The efficiency of the FCVs has increased tremendously over the last few years with concentrated work we should see a 300 mile range vehicle in the near future. How many years have we had El vehicles? Still limited to 200 mile range and 3.5 hour recharge time even in a $150,000 plus vehicle.
So, the half million dollar FCV vehicles can run for 200-300 miles and end up in a place with absolutely no ability to refuel? Sign me up!
Once again apples to oranges. They will be = price to current models when mass produced. You will be able to buy them in areas where fuel is available just like Honda and GM are doing in Cal, NY and DC area now. You will not be able to overcome the long charge time and limited range without major tech advances. This fuel technology exists now and can be done with the installation of fueling locations. That is our plan to install the fueling locations.
As a business owner who already has an electric bill over $1200 a month average I couldn't afford to let all of my employees charge their cars while at work and still afford to keep them all.
Yeah, to recharge your employee's cars would cost you about $.03 cents a mile for the miles you let them recharge each day. If you had 20 employees driving 20 miles each way that would be $12 a day. If I were a Texas business owner, I'd look for incentives from the Utility company or Dallas to reduce the emissions of my employees.
What about your comment of charging at off peak times? Kind of shoots that off peak charging theory. $12 per day x 6 days a week x 10 employees= over $3000 per month. That is one less person. Now I am a small business imagine a company that has 5,000 employees on site per day needing to charge. Do you know what the expense would be just to wire up and have enough capacity to charge that many cars? You are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars just for the infrastructure that you say is in place.
I saw a stat on a website a while back, can't remember which one but will try and find it for you, that said if a conversion to 30% of our vehicles to El was done we would need to double the number of power generation facilities.
Remember, that the utility companies are running at reduced capacity at night when most EV's would be charged. By charging EV's at night, the Utility makes more money for it's investment because the equipment isn't sitting idle producing no income for them.
See above comment.
In my opinion a huge waste of money is to purchase a $150,000 rechargeable 2 seater car that I can't drive to Dallas and back without recharging.
So buy a $36,000-$40,000 four door five passenger GM Volt and drive up to 40 miles on an electric charge. The drive as far as you want u
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Permalink Reply by Cobraphx (Matt) on -
What about your comment of charging at off peak times? Kind of shoots that off peak charging theory. $12 per day x 6 days a week x 10 employees= over $3000 per month. That is one less person. Now I am a small business imagine a company that has 5,000 employees on site per day needing to charge. Do you know what the expense would be just to wire up and have enough capacity to charge that many cars? You are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars just for the infrastructure that you say is in place.
John, the $12 per day was to recharge the 20 vehicles all traveling 20 miles to your place of work, not $12 per vehicle.
So, let's do the math with the 10 employees you now have. If each employee drives 20 miles each way to work for you, you are providing charging for 200 miles a day. If they are driving a vehicle equivalent to the GM Volt, you don't need to recharge any of them, they can go 40 miles on the charge they did at home the night before. But say you're a generous employer and give the charge as a benefit for doing their part to reduce our fossil fuel consumption...
10 employees times 20 miles is 200 miles per day. The Volt and similar vehicles get around 4.5 miles per kWh, so each day you will be providing your employees with 45kWh or so of electricity. In the Dallas area, the best I can dig up is that residential users pay around $0.11 per kWh at daytime rates, you probably pay less as a business customer, but I don't know you may pay more. So the electricity perk would cost you $4.95 per day for your 10 employee crew. For the month, you would be shelling out a grand total of $118.80 in extra electricity costs and providing 10 people an incentive to buy a vehicle that reduces their gasoline consumption to nearly zero. Sounds like a win-win to me. Nice thing to do for less than $.50 per employee per day they work.
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Permalink Reply by Cobraphx (Matt) on
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We will have a network of fueling locations that will start in College Station, followed by DFW area, then working our way in all directions from there at 100 to 150 mile radius.
Does this mean your company is in the business of building H2 refilling stations? If so, that would make sense why you don't care about how inefficient H2 is as an automotive fuel. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, and you mean that the people betting on a technology that has no future will be building hydrogen refueling stations around Texas
My guess is that in 20 years there will be plenty of hydrogen stations that look like this:
Executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor cast doubts yesterday about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term, reports The Wall Street Journal. The executives said electric cars will be a better way to cut emissions and improve fuel efficiency. Speaking at the Geneva auto show, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz told reporters that advances in lithium-ion batteries will enable electric cars to drive up to 300 miles without recharging, making them more attractive to the mass market. He added that fuel cells are too expensive for mainstream use.
from:
"If we get lithium-ion to 300 miles, then you need to ask yourself, Why do you need fuel cells?" Lutz was quoted as saying. "We are nowhere [near] where we need to be on the costs curve" for fuel-cell vehicles.
Separately Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe echoed the sentiment, saying that costs for fuel cells remain high and the infrastructure needed to distribute hydrogen is not in place.
http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0305-fuel_cells.html
And here's an article from 2003 Hydrogen vehicle won't be viable soon, study says">http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/hydrogen-0305.html seems to be the same story then as now.
Hydrogen Is Not Viable
Fuel cell cars still 15 years away at best: study
I'm not sure why you personally want hydrogen to power your car, but wanting it so won't make it an attractive fuel. I understand why it's attractive to the companies that own the NG supply (where our H2 comes from) or if you are able to get tax dollars to waste building a H2 station, or pileline. But without either, no one would invest to build an infrastructure to support the 200 Honda FCX's they will lease over the next 3 years.
And remember that for every kg of hydrogen you consume, 5.5kg of CO2 was released. Unless you are talking about hydrogen made from cleanly generated electricity and water in a plant that doesn't exist, and pumped in a pipeline that doesn't exist, and never trucked in a truck that burns diesel to get it to a station (that again doesn't exist) where you can buy it. As for me, I'll be driving the car I plugged in the night before and charged up for forty cents. Battery Electric Vehicles and Plug-in Hybrids will cost you less to buy and cost 3 times less to drive than a FCV. You can buy all the $2.50 a gallon H2 you want, again that is if you can ever buy a Fuel Cell Vehicle and fill it an an H2 station.
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on
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Sorry I tried to complete my reply back to your rants last night but my 2 hour battery on my laptop only lasted for 45 minutes so I couldn't finish. And by the way the laptop is only 6 weeks old. If you read my responses to your questions and comment on earlier posts you would see I have already replied to all of your above comments.
To comment from Toy and GM: Near term-what is that? And it ends with because of infrastructure not in place.
As stated earlier our plan is to put the infrastructure in place. And GM and Honda execs both have said when mass produced the cost will be = to current production models. Don't have time to keep repeating the same things over.
We are not using a single tax dollar to build anything.
We are using renewable energy to produce.
Not looking for investors as return will not be immediate.
CO2 is not released when produced with renewable energy.
Technology exists to produce by electrolysis using grid power but we will use solar and wind.
I can't have an intelligent debate with someone who has their mind made up that their way is the only way so best of luck to you with your el vehicles.
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Permalink Reply by Harvey on -
Hydrogen is a non-starter for automotive use.
The cost to generate the purity level (99.999%) for fuel cells is too high.
The cost of the needed infrastructure is over $2 trillion.
Who is going to pay for that?
No decision has been made to use hydrogen gas or liquid.
Nobody is going to build an infrastructure for both.
The electric vehicle is the only long term practical choice.
The battery issue has been solved.
With the new battery technology the Tesla will be able to go 2000 miles on a single charge.
The batteries will be on the market in about 6 months.
Watch for an announcement by GM about the new range on the Volt right after the first of the year.
Recharge time is down to 15 to 30 minutes depnding on available voltage (110 or 220) at your charging site.
Batteries weighing only 300 pounds will take you 600 miles on a single charge.
The new power density will allow your laptop to run 20 hours instead of 2.
The materials of the battery are 100% recycleable.
The projected life is 20 years.
And the infrastructure is already in place.
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on
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I want to be clear with everyone. I am for all alternatives. But setting one as the cure all for our oil dependence is just not possible. What are we going to do for delivery trucks etc. El Vehciles are just not the cure all for everything.
Hydrogen is a non-starter for automotive use.
This is purely your opinion. Not that of Honda, GM and others with years of fuel cell vehicle R&D.
The cost to generate the purity level (99.999%) for fuel cells is too high.
Compared to what? When using renewable energy to produce we will be able to sell for $1.95 per gallon eqv.
The cost of the needed infrastructure is over $2 trillion.
According to who? It will cost about $4mil per location using renewable energy to build each location which is higher than using grid power but makes them more environmentally friendly and economical in the long run. You don't need one on every corner as you have now with gas stations. According to Energy Independence Now website a study by Rocky Mountain Institute projected the cost of a nationwide infrastructure of decentralized hydrogen sources could be built for appx $4.1 billion.
Who is going to pay for that?
Individuals that are looking for a true alternative. With a 10% participation rate of the driving age public of the $59.95 package we can build the first 900 to 1100 locations. Each participant receives in return a discount package that will in most cases more than double the amount of their package prices in discounts.
No decision has been made to use hydrogen gas or liquid.
The first two vehicles that are production ready are the Honda FCX and the GM Equinox SUV FCV which both use gas form. The challenges of liquid are extreme cold storage and efficiency loss. We are not saying what the standard will be but we are going to install gas production and compression units and work with Honda and GM in areas we build locations.
Nobody is going to build an infrastructure for both.
See Above
The electric vehicle is the only long term practical choice.
Once again in your opinion. I don't like the idea of having to stop every 200 miles to recharge for 3.5 hours. With our solution you will be able to drive just as you do now and refuel at station.
The battery issue has been solved.
By who? I have a 6 week old laptop that says I will have a 2 hour battery life that died last night in 45 minutes. Proof is what we need no talk. The Honda FCX has a 280 mile range on just over 4 kilo of Hydrogen which at our location would cost you about $25 dollars pretax to fuel up. No waiting, no charging, 0 emission.
With the new battery technology the Tesla will be able to go 2000 miles on a single charge.
Are you telling me they have a 10times over improvement and don't have it plastered all over the news? Once again see above. Show me proof.
The batteries will be on the market in about 6 months.
See previous 2 comments.
Watch for an announcement by GM about the new range on the Volt right after the first of
the year.
Volt is a hybrid with gasoline or diesel usage also. Great for reduction in dependence but my plan is for the long term elimination of oil dependence for transportation.
Recharge time is down to 15 to 30 minutes depending on available voltage (110 or 220) at your charging site.
For what vehicle? The Tesla site itself quotes 3.5 hours recharge time with good energy source. One of the replies yesterday to one of mine says it can take up to 12 hours with low voltage charge?
Batteries weighing only 300 pounds will take you 600 miles on a single charge.
Once again PROOF.
The new power density will allow your laptop to run 20 hours instead of 2.
Once again proof. My 6 week old laptop says 2 hour and last night I got 45 minutes from a charge.
The materials of the battery are 100% recycleable.
What material are they made from.
The projected life is 20 years.
Once again proof. Who's making it? Why is it not in the news?
And the infrastructure is already in place.
I will find the info on the website I mentioned in an earlier response that said if 30% of the auto fleet switched to el vehicles we would need to double our production capacity. I will do my best to find the source on that one.
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Permalink Reply by Harvey on
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Here is your source.
From Stanford U.
10x battery power.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html
Stop with your advertisments.
Hydrogen won't work.
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on
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Looks like it could improve battery life. But how much of a cost? How soon to production? Nano tech is VERY expensive. But my comments in response to other post are still the same. The more divisified we can become and have many fuel options available is a good thing. What happens in areas that are prone to hurricanes and other storms that knock out power? What keeps El generation companies from being extremely expensive? We must look at ALL Alternatives.
Harvey
You or any of the oil companies or any person telling me to stop with my advertisements will not make our solution go away. We will build our locations for the vehicles that exist and future vehicles with fuel cells. With your line of reasoning we should have stopped working on battery power 10 years ago. Hydrogen already does work and is currently one of several great options for eliminating our dependence on oil.
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Permalink Reply by Michael D Mays on -
Aside from links to buy sponsorship from your organization, I cannot find the links you reference in your posts here.
How are the bumper sticker and promise of hydrogen sales going?
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on
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Top right side is a link to the review under hydrogen car review. Also have a link on MySpace under newghas from a local news story. If you are refering to the comments in below post all of the information on CNG comes from a website I pulled called CNG Outfitters. They seemed to have direct answers to my questions under FAQ section. Also my Dad started a few years ago helping a friend at his propane company when his friend found out he had cancer. He had been retired for a few years but enjoyed being out working again so he stayed. He ending up having to get certified to fuel up propane in vehicles. We are starting to get a fair response on the bumper stickers. About 75 out so far. We just need help spreading the word. All of the effort so far is being done by 3 people. Using myspace, facebook, and any source we think will find interested people. All of us also work other jobs now so we are devoting 4 or 5 hours a day each to getting the word out. If you have any specific questions feel free to email me from the page or from here. Thanks.
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Permalink Reply by Tai Robinson on -
At 3:44pm on July 28th, 2008, John Jackson said…
Why do you think we must convert to CNG before hydrogen? We have had CNG available here in Texas for years. It is about 10% less efficient than gasoline and the large tank for a pickup which takes away about 1/3 of the bed only has a range of about 175 miles. Also you have to run every third tank on gasoline. You can't convert diesel engines to CNG at all and any engine with a supercharger or turbocharger can't use either. My dad works at a location that does propane and CNG and he has to be certified to fill up any tanks which you must have in Texas. With the current hydrogen fueling stations in use in California you can fill up yourself.
And to answer your second comment yes we have all of the numbers for installing locations. A large cost reduction can be realized the faster we spread the word about our plan. If we can contract to build 100 locations instead of 2 we can see a significant savings on production equipment.
With the Honda FCX being production ready and the GM Equinox SUV FCV according to Larry Burns VP of GM, only needing fueling locations to be mass produced we could make a direct impact on fuel prices when oil companies and producers see a true alternative is on the way. With only the need for fueling stations we could see a 20 to 30% reduction on fuel in 5 years. I base that on how many people I know that drive a 5 year or older vehicle. Wouldn't it be nice to have alternatives of Fuel Cell, CNG, Hybrid, Gas, or Diesel when you make your next car purchase?
John,
Never mind, you obviously have it all figured out and do not need me.
But.... If you are unhappy with the range of CNG, which takes up 3 times the volume of gasoline, you are going to be sorely disapointed with H2, which takes up 3 times more volume than CNG. My H2TOY can go 175 miles on a full tank of hydrogen, when the same fuel tanks are full of CNG, the range is 500 miles. You should probably watch some of my videos and google search my work.
You are wrong about diesel engines, they can run on CNG or H2. You are also wrong about having to use gasoline every third tank between CNG, only a defunct system like the GFI system in the Ford F150 do the reccomend that, but it is still not required.
Have you ever filled up with H2 in California? Good luck getting permission!
Yes, we must first fully embrace CNG to then be able to transistion to hydrogen. If you want a hydrogne vehilce from us, or Honda, you must first have a CNG vehicle.
Yes, 100 stations is more economical than 2 hydrogen stations, but you plan is lacking the vehicles which need to be deployed at the same time. Our Intergalactic Gas stations that provide the fuels and the multi-fuel vehicles that work in todays infrastructure is the way it will work. Belive me, I drive a hydrogen powered vehilce every day, but mostely it is driven on CNG becasue that is what is available. If you are serious about your plan and you would like to work it out, give me a call, I can provide the knowledge you will need to succed.
Thank You!
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Tai W. Robinson
www.IntergalacticHydrogen.com
801-201-7370
MADE-IN-USA renewable energy products & cleaner fuel options that work with today's infrastructure and beyond. We build multi-fuel, hydrogen (H2), methane (CNG), propane (LPG), electric (EV, HEV & PHEV), biodiesel (B100), SVO and ethanol (E85) automobiles, appliances and infrastructure. We promote the cleaner, safer, local fuels through educational workshops and engineering consultation. Reduce your footprint on the planet with American Fuel Vehicles (AFV's) and declare your energy independence.
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Permalink Reply by John Jackson on
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Why do you think we must convert to CNG before hydrogen? We have had CNG available here in Texas for years. It is about 10% less efficient than gasoline and the large tank for a pickup which takes away about 1/3 of the bed only has a range of about 175 miles. Also you have to run every third tank on gasoline. You can't convert diesel engines to CNG at all and any engine with a supercharger or turbocharger can't use either. My dad works at a location that does propane and CNG and he has to be certified to fill up any tanks which you must have in Texas. With the current hydrogen fueling stations in use in California you can fill up yourself.
And to answer your second comment yes we have all of the numbers for installing locations. A large cost reduction can be realized the faster we spread the word about our plan. If we can contract to build 100 locations instead of 2 we can see a significant savings on production equipment.
With the Honda FCX being production ready and the GM Equinox SUV FCV according to Larry Burns VP of GM, only needing fueling locations to be mass produced we could make a direct impact on fuel prices when oil companies and producers see a true alternative is on the way. With only the need for fueling stations we could see a 20 to 30% reduction on fuel in 5 years. I base that on how many people I know that drive a 5 year or older vehicle. Wouldn't it be nice to have alternatives of Fuel Cell, CNG, Hybrid, Gas, or Diesel when you make your next car purchase?
John,
Never mind, you obviously have it all figured out and do not need me.
But.... If you are unhappy with the range of CNG, which takes up 3 times the volume of gasoline, you are going to be sorely disapointed with H2, which takes up 3 times more volume than CNG. My H2TOY can go 175 miles on a full tank of hydrogen, when the same fuel tanks are full of CNG, the range is 500 miles. You should probably watch some of my videos and google search my work.
The new fuel cell in Honda FCX Clarity has a 280 mile range on just over 4 kilo of hydrogen gas. It is production ready. Are you using compressed gas hydrogen or liquid?
You are wrong about diesel engines, they can run on CNG or H2. You are also wrong about having to use gasoline every third tank between CNG, only a defunct system like the GFI system in the Ford F150 do the reccomend that, but it is still not required.
I must have wrong information. According to CNG Outfitters on the web under FAQ section it says "Diesel, and any gas engine equipped with turbo's or superchargers will NOT work on CNG". The gasoline every third tank may not be necessary any longer. That was an old standard and may not be needed any longer.
Have you ever filled up with H2 in California? Good luck getting permission!
According to a recent news article the first true public location opened a few weeks ago in LA at a Shell station. They are using the same generation/compression unit we are going to use but are using grid power to produce.
Yes, we must first fully embrace CNG to then be able to transistion to hydrogen. If you want a hydrogne vehilce from us, or Honda, you must first have a CNG vehicle.
Why do we have to "embrace CNG"? I don't understand that statement. The FCX Clarity and the GM Equinox SUV FCV are both hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. They don't run on CNG. Why do we need to build a CNG network to convert to hydrogen? Unless you plan is to produce hydrogen with CNG there is not need. We are producing hydrogen through electrolysis using solar and wind power for production.
Yes, 100 stations is more economical than 2 hydrogen stations, but you plan is lacking the vehicles which need to be deployed at the same time. Our Intergalactic Gas stations that provide the fuels and the multi-fuel vehicles that work in todays infrastructure is the way it will work. Belive me, I drive a hydrogen powered vehilce every day, but mostely it is driven on CNG becasue that is what is available. If you are serious about your plan and you would like to work it out, give me a call, I can provide the knowledge you will need to succed.
See our website for the chicken or the egg problem. Can't build the cars until the fueling locations are in place and can't build the fueling stations until the cars are available. That is why our plan is needed. We can build the locations putting power back into the grid until demand is built up for the hydrogen fuel as Honda and GM release vehicles to the areas we build locations. Our plan calls for no tax dollars and can be done with 10% participation of the driving age public of the $59.95 package. For less than the price of a tank of gas we can build 900 to 1100 locations. The participants will receive discounts back that in most cases double their package price in return. I would like to talk about plans with you but it appears you have no interest in any ideas other than your own. Thanks.
Thank You!
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Tai W. Robinson
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