use water as fuel does it work??

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Permalink Reply by Joe Jefferis on July 30, 2008 at 8:27pm

Big issue that needs to be addressed - This sounds like an argument for the status quo. If you are not in favor of ridding yourself of the addiction to oil, then you need to join another group. OPEC needs more people like you to help stop progress before it gets out of hand.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Jefferis on July 31, 2008 at 5:09pm

07/31/08 NEWS FLASH! A House committee approved a compact Wednesday to prevent the diversion of water from the Great Lakes. Ken Thomas of the AP reports. "The compact will ensure our Great Lakes will remain stable and vibrant for generations to come" said Rep John Conyers, a Michigan democrat and the committee's chairman. "Without this compact, the Great Lakes are left vulnerable to interests that want to deplete the lakes" said George Voinovich.

Another American natural resource protected from utilitzation, another victory for status quo, another obstacle created for the future generations to untangle. Since when does North America have to preserve its abundant resources for the two thirds of the world who will lack access to clean fresh water?

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Permalink Reply by Joe Jefferis on July 30, 2008 at 8:22pm

Water is abundant in certain areas like North America's Great Lakes. Like natural gas, we already have an efficient infrastructure to distribute and deliver water to where we need it. Other areas of the USA and the world do suffer from fresh water shortages. They can use natural gas for their vehicles. If you want to argue that there is not enough water to put Mr. Meyer's technology to practice, then you are not really interested in change.

As Mr. Pickens points out, there is no one single solution to the problem. We need to support his plan because it does not require much disruption to the existing infrastructure. The gasoline stations really don't make any money on selling gasoline. They make their big profits on pop, cigs, beer, ice, and candy. Filling up with natural gas at your home won't put the corner store out of business. The money for the gasoline/oil goes to sovereign wealth funds who are severly invested in keeping the status quo and you addicted to their product.

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Permalink Reply by goneaway on July 27, 2008 at 3:44pm

Hydrogen can be made from water and electricity
then the hydrogen gas is compressed
and used in a car or home furnace or home stove

yes it can work and has been working in real situations for quite a few years now.

Honda and many others are producing these power stations for filling up their cars other uses include generating fuel, heat, electric in remote places for military and commercial buildings that are off grid and inaccessable.

But with a retrofit many cars could use hydrogen as a combustion fuel.


HOWEVER there are many scammers out there that would have you believe that you can hook up a small hydrogen gas box on your car and make enough hydrogen to run your car.... THESE THINGS ARE FAKE.


If you want a device that works then you go with a reliable company with many years of history building products... This is not to say new comers should not be accepted but the development of Hydrogen as a fuel or as used in a fuel cell has undergone many many years of testing costing millions if not billions of dollars to get it to work correctly in real life.

If the product you are looking at is made by a longstanding company then you can probably trust it and you can bet every car maker has some type of Hydrogen fueled car already designed many years ago...

Also there is a big difference between Hydrogen Gas as a fuel and Hydrogen Fuel Cells....

Hydrogen as a fuel Gas is burnt in the car and could be used in a Gasoline, propane or natural gas vehicle with only modifications to the fuel system needed ....not requiring a full rebuild of the drive train.

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are different and more expensive and do not need to be used in cars to replace gasoline with hydrogen gas as the fuel source


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Permalink Reply by James Tracy on July 28, 2008 at 2:50am

While there isn't one now, there may be someone who has a solution, but not just yet ready to let every one know. There are alot of hoax's out there. Stan Meyers, and others made a mess for anyone who has anything in this feild.

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Permalink Reply by James Tracy on July 28, 2008 at 9:13am

Thanks Kathy for the links, as always you are great.
Hydrogen is not new, 200+ years of knowledge on it. Remember the Hindenburg?
According to ABC news, 2020 is when a Hydrogen car will be ready.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AheadoftheCurve/story?id=5414748&a...

Honda has been saying next year for years.

I have a few idea's as to how this can be done. But pure research takes pure money.
With all the noise out there, I cant get heard, til now. The problem is that every one is beating against the same barrier. The ammount of gas gained, for the loss of energy, is less than gasoline. I saw a 1980's report (Kathy let me know if you find it), that said Hydrogen's energy cost was 1/3 as efficient as gasoline, when gasoline was $1.00 a gallon. So, with gasoline at $3.00 + a gallon. It should be more than feasible. But of a real system to work the main parts are noble metals, tantalum, gold, platinum, and rhodium, all very expensive.

I can guarantee that there is a solution, but whether it gets funding is highly debatable.
I do plan to go back to work on this after I get my oxidant Generator going to the point it cannot be buried.

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Permalink Reply by Joe Jefferis on July 28, 2008 at 11:26am

Stan Meyers didn't make a mess. The courts made the mess about Stan Meyers. I don't think science is the realm of expertise for judges or lawmakers. Magnetism is stored energy that is not electrified and so how the mono-thought conceptual law of thermodynamics applies is irrelevant. Please review the Stanley Meyer patents I posted more carefully. As I understand Mr. Meyer's theory (or invention) is that the water is "treated" by passing over an element that has magnetic qualities for hydrogen atoms. This magnetism destablizes the water molecule making is easier to separate.

Please eloborate specifically on what got "messed" for those who have anything in this field.

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Permalink Reply by James Tracy on July 28, 2008 at 12:34pm

I agree the courts screwed it up, and I also think he was on to something. But unless you are going to exactly reverse engineer it from his data, to test, and then get 3rd party verification, that incedent, and all the hoaxers, have made it almost imposible to get funding for anything in that field.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Smoley on July 28, 2008 at 2:00pm

This is where hope & science depart. You can't "magnetize" hydrogen while combined with oxygen as water.
Ever notice that many types of stainless steel are not magnetic, yet contain plenty of highly magnetizable iron? Same thing with hemoglobin, the iron (or any other element that could become magnetic) MUST be in a form where the iron atoms are able to line up (and stay that way). If they can't you don't get magnetism. Hydrogen could be considered a metal, because of it's one electron causing metal like chemical behavior, but the rest of it's properties show it is not a metal and doesn't behave like one. Now, if you can get it close to zero degrees while it is in liquid form, then the behavior changes, but it requires a lot of energy too cool it that far.

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Permalink Reply by H-Tom on July 29, 2008 at 8:36am

What a Bunch Of Nay Sayers, (JEFF) a Hydrogen generator does work and I can prove it, There are many videos of proof on Youtube as to the production of Hydrogen, I Also Have A Hydrogen generator in My Ford f250 Diesel and have gained over 30% fuel economy, The hydrogen is produced from excess electrical power produced from your alternator, That is also a misconception, not very much electrical energy is needed to crack the water to get the hydrogen, My diesel engine runs better wjth the Supplemental Hydrogen adde to it , the Engines are not Running entirely off hydrogen which is the missconception here, Anly a small amount is needed to supplement the fuel, when introduced to the engine it mixes with fuel to make the fuel burn better and more efficient, and yes there are also cars that run entirely on hydrogen , Honda and BMW also have one , but Hydrogen does work, So for the nay sayers , they probally work for big oil, or some other gov outfit to thwart the real facts and just try to confuse people about the Real Truth behind Hydrogen, Rember we are only supplementing the fuel with hydrogen to make it Burn more Efficient which reduces ypour consumption, And one more thing it does is Reduce your Emissions, as the cleaner burn results in cleaner emissions, Gas cars are little more difficult to add hydrogen to because of the Oxygen sensors they have on the engine but there are companies working on this problem and have some devices to add to the sensors to help control the computor , Diesels work Perfect, and Many truckers have them on their 18 wheelers, SO before you say It doesn't work,Think again, It truly does work and I can Prove it,

H-Tom

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Smoley on July 29, 2008 at 9:06am

Here is some more information gathered from the 'net:
1 pound of air = 2894 Gallons. 1 Gallon of gas = 6 lbs. A car driving 30mph while getting 30 mpg for 1 hour will use 42524 Gallons of air and 1 gallon of gas. This is at the normal fuel/air ratio of 14.7:1. A hydro cell that makes 120 ltr/hr in a car makes 31.72 gallons of HHO. This is 0.0007465% (7 ten thousands of 1%) of the air. Not enough to make any kind of detectable difference.

Room-temperature electrolysis is only about 50% efficient, so for every 2 energy units of electricity you put into the water, you only get 1 energy unit of hydrogen back out.

60mph cruise power for most cars is around 25-30bhp, more for SUV's and trucks. 10% of that is 2.5bhp = 1875w, engine needs 7Kw of HHO gas to make that power. Gas generator will have to draw 500 AMPS! Crank output 1Kw drives Alternator, output 67 Amps @14v 950watts, 95% efficient. HHO gas generator makes 931 watts of HHO gas - 98% efficient. HHO gas burnt in engine giving 250 watts of power at crank, 27% efficient, rest goes down exhaust pipe and to cooling system. LOSS = 750 watts (1bhp). You have to burn EXTRA fuel to supply that loss. The more HHO gas you make the bigger the loss (or the sooner you have a flat battery). HHO generator not drawing 500 amps, not even 60+ amps? HHO gen only pulling 10/15amps? Then you aren't making enough gas to power a headlamp. HHO gen only drawing 1 or 2 amps? It's not enough to power the dash lamps.

One other thing. "engine is running far too lean for decent emissions" Do you know that you just contradicted yourself? (A lean burn means using less fuel and more oxygen) in turn wouldn’t that decrease the amount of emissions produced? Whoa! Slow down there cow poke. You do realize that emissions are not just unburnt hydrocarbons, right? Maybe not, so let's go thru it. You burn hydrocarbon based fuel. Gasoline, diesel, bio-D, Ethanol, etc. The oxygen in the air combines chemically with the Hydrogen and forms H2O or water. There is still more oxygen left and it combines with the carbon to form CO2. That's it, if it were a perfect world. But it ain't. The reaction for burning carbon goes from carbon to CO then to CO2. Some of the reactions only go to CO. Heck, some don't get burned at all and stay as C (soot). While all this burning is going on there is a nearly inert tag along in there too. Nitrogen. That stuff doesn't want to separate from its N2 form. Very few organism can deal with it (Called Nitrogen fixing - google it). But at high temperatures more reactions can occur. One of them is to burn nitrogen from N2 into an oxide of nitrogen NO, NO2. Either of them are bad and are grouped into NOx. The higher the combustion temperatures the greater the quantity of them produced. Why do we care? NOx's are the prime component of smog, brown haze and acid rain. Ever visit LA in the late '60's? YUCK! Why talk about higher temperatures causing more NOx's? Because, lean burning is a hotter burning. Also, there is extra oxygen still sitting around after the hydrocarbons are all consumed, so having the munchies, they consume nitrogen. That's one reason why O2 sensors are used. Te ensure there is enough oxygen to consume all the hydrocarbons, but not a ton extra so N2's are not also consumed into NOx's. Keeping the combustion temperatures down is also why EGR is used. Exhaust Gas Recycling. It dilutes the incoming charge and cools the combustion process, further limiting the formation of NOx's. If you do research you will find that Hydrogen flame propagation is 1/70th the rate of a gas/air flame. That's SLOWER. In the research papers that show an improvement, they are operating at 25:1 air fuel or leaner and they use the hydrogen to initiate the combustion process. Why? At those concentrations, the gasoline is not very combustible. Think about this, on the freeway under very light load and high manifold vacuum, the distributor adds about 20 degrees of spark timing advance. Why? Because the lean fuel mix in those conditions is hard to ignite and it burns slowly. That is a mixture in the 16:1 to 17:1 ratio range. What would happen at 25:1 or 30:1 is that it wouldn't ignite from a spark at all. But if you add about 10% hydrogen to the mix, the hydrogen then lights and does help the super lean mix ignite and continue to burn. 2 problems. 1)These systems only put out 1-2 liters of total gas. The gas is a mixture of H2, O2 and H2O vapor as the process is hot and it boils some of the water. So at 15 amps most systems claim 1 liter per minute total gas flow. That's 0.66 liter of Hydrogen. Not enough to reach a combustible mixture at freeway speeds. Typically under 1% hydrogen content. 2) The fuel is still being provided at 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio by the computer.

http://consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/07/water4gas.html

Cars can run on hydrogen, but they can't run on hydrogen provided by running the car on hydrogen. The hydrogen has to be created somewhere else using energy. More energy than you get by burning hydrogen. Leaning out the fuel mixture will get you a bit more mileage, but your emissions go up since the temperature in the engine goes up. It takes more energy to create the hydrogen than you get by burning it, even if you are using it as a supplement. You would actually get better performance if you dumped the HH and only fed the O2 to the engine.

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Permalink Reply by H-Tom on July 29, 2008 at 9:15am

Wow Jeff you really are non believer, too Bad,

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