Hydrogen Fuel Cell

The holy grail is to store energy as hydrogen. Hydrogen can store 142 mega joules of energy per kilo gram. Our favorate energy source is gasoline(some hate it) at 46 mega joules per kilo gram. Better yet, If a hydrogen fuel cell is used to power a car it is 60 percent energy effecient versus an internal combustion energy at 16%. The Honda Clarity will travel 100 miles on a kilo gram of hydrogen while a Toyota Prius will tavel 7 miles on a kilo gram of gasoline.Theoretically the ICE is a Rube Goldberd design compared to the fuel cell. However; The hydrogen solution has been just as ellusive as the holy grail.

Here is good link for comparing energy storage densities. You will see that NG is a good energy storage "device".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

PS: The exhaust is water vapor. No pollution from the fuel cell!

Tags: cell, fuel, hydrogen

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Thomas Dixon on November 18, 2008 at 6:51am: What is important is volume not weight. There is only so much room for a gas tank.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Harvey on August 20, 2008 at 10:39am: Don't worry about the hydrogen.
Who can afford the fuel cell?
$250,000 for a typical car.
If all you are worried about is the hydrogen density you should look into 'solid hydrogen' a 'technology' that has been around since the 1800's.
6 times the density (grams per liter) of 5,000pis tanks, 3 times the density of 10,000psi tanks and double the density of liquid hydrogen all at only 300psi.
A 'proof of concept' Prius was run for 2 years (2002-2004) on solid hydrogen using an ICE converted for hydrogen.
They got over 300 miles on 2 small tanks hung in place of the original fuel tank.
It died due to lack of infrastructure.

http://www.ovonic.com/PDFs/media_room/ovonic-hydrogen-systems_dec04...

And you might want to review this.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax

Good luck .; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kenneth Koch on August 20, 2008 at 1:44pm: I read the atlantis article months ago. It's full of bunk when you look at the details.

EX:
"Hydrogen and gas have the same enegy content"
Fact: gas has 42 MJ/Kg and H2 has 142MJ/Kg
FACT:You get an effeciency gain in energy of a factor of 4 with H2(ICE effiency is 16% while a fuel can get around 60%

That is just one example.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Harvey on August 20, 2008 at 11:33pm: The government standard (gge) is 1.04 kg of hydrogen = 1 gal of gas.
The pricing and power is figured from that.
Right now the price of 1kg of hydrogen that is clean enough (reagent grade) to run through a fuel cell is $100.
Go price it. I have.
Plus you are not looking at the front end INeffiency of producing hydrogen.
The math is out there.
You can not look at just the final numbers.
And the price of fuel cells is NOT going to come down as long as they need platinum at over $2500/troy oz. and going up.
People are stealing catalytic converters off of parked cars for the value of the platinum. They get $100 to $125 for a used converter.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kenneth Koch on August 21, 2008 at 10:26am: I think this article is talking about 5$/Kg hydrogen for a fuel cell car that is available today. I'm pretty sure they are refering to GGE. The H2 is made from NG on site. Honda also makes a home fueling station available. With respect to VOLUME, the range is 280 miles with 4Kg of H2 at 5000 PSI.

"Lease terms, which include maintenance and insurance, will be for three years at $600 per month. And the car will be available only to Southern California residents who live near existing hydrogen fuel-pump facilities in Irvine, Torrance and Santa Monica. The fuel costs about $5 per gallon right now, but since the Clarity gets 68 mpg, filling the tank is still a bargain. "

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=1...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Harvey on August 22, 2008 at 12:05am: It's $5GGE because it is subsidized by the state, the feds and Shell.
This is a DEMONSTRATION project.
California is spending $3b to make this work.
The prices are being kept low to make it useable for now.
And if it is being made from NG it is producing a lot of CO2.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on August 24, 2008 at 12:42am: <<People are stealing catalytic converters off of parked cars for the value of the platinum. They get $100 to $125 for a used converter.>>

Where the HELL can I get 100-125 bucks for a used converter? Damn, that 9PM to 6 AM hours my scrap man is holding, I should have gotten a better price. 10 bucks a pop.

The Deuceman; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Harvey on August 24, 2008 at 9:36am: Here you go.

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/5014071.html

You should have a long ITALIAN talk with your junk man.......lol; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Thomas Dixon on October 31, 2008 at 10:59am: “Right now the price of 1kg of hydrogen that is clean enough (reagent grade) to run through a fuel cell is $100.”

The key to your statement is “right now”

If we tap geothermal energy to electrolyze seawater we can produce the hydrogen gas at a much lower cost while replenishing our atmosphere with oxygen all at the same time.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kenneth Koch on October 31, 2008 at 1:05pm: Actually..

In southern CA where they are leasing the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell vehicle one can buy H2 for 5$ per gallon. The H2 is made from natural gas onsite.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Mathew Andresen on August 20, 2008 at 1:58pm: Sure hydrogen cars cost a bunch right now, they are all being hand made. Costs will come down considerably with by using mass production techniques. Plus of course further technoligial improvments.

Two great places for fuel cell info

http://www.fuelcellinsider.org/
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/

Thanks,; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Cobraphx (Matt) on August 20, 2008 at 8:57pm: You are right, mass production of $250,000 fuel cells will reduce the price. Same thing will happen with advanced batteries, the price of a $50,000 battery pack that can drive an Electric Vehicle 300-400 miles will drop with mass production as well. Since the battery is already 5 times cheaper (and available) now, and 3-10 times as efficient as the H2 FCV why is there a push for hydrogen? My guess is the push is from oil companies that own th NG used to make H2 in this country. Also remember, the FCV needs the same battery technology to actually work, just needs a smaller capacity battery.

I just don't see fuel cell costs dropping fast enough, and source to wheel efficiency of H2 fuel cell vehicles will never reach that of even the worst EV designs.; ▶ Reply to This