Solar and Alternate Energy Discussion and Support Group
I have an idea that might get us all pulling together in the right direction and help solve the energy problem. If we start a discussion group where people can ask questions that will help them decide how to buy or build alternate energy systems it would get us all focusing on our real problem which is how do we cut our dependence on foreign oil, and also how do we immediately start cutting our energy costs? We should all remember that some folks know a lot more about the subject than others so let's be fair and share our information with the certain knowledge that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Everyone gets to learn from the ground up. Personally I'm still learning. I expect to learn a great deal. This will be a great experiment.
Tags: bio, grey, hydro, mass, solar, water, wind
Views: 3
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Walt Barrett on -
Hi Lawrence,
All the new types of lighting sound interesting and I for one want to learn more about them. I will be following your suggestions.
Thanks,
Walt
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Permalink Reply by neil cox on -
I thought I knew this subject well, buy Lawrence Murray has me confused. While we can measure in w/l, isn't it more conventual l/w? 100 w/l is bad. 100 l/w is excellent.
These 60 watt incandescent bulbs produce 850 lumens. That is 14 lumens per watt. Ten times better would be 140 l/w. Some LEDs claim ten times better than a 40 watt incandescent that produces about 500 lumens = 12.5 lumens per watt or 125 l/w for the best LEDs.
Motor control incandescents could be 6 watts at 250 volts, 4 watts at 120 volts, 3 watts at 28 volts or 2 watts at 6 volts to get about 20 lumens, the 6 volt being more efficient and better able withstand vibration and rough handling. 6 volts is also best for LEDs as the newer types need about 5 volts dc. Pulse generators improve LED efficiency a little, but increase the cost at least a little. I suppose 12 volt headlights use 2 LEDs in series, but they might use pulse generators as the voltage can go as high as 15 volts and LEDs are sensitive to voltage change unless they use a pulse circuit that compensates for different input voltages. We had a 67 volt brown out for a half hour last year, and about 1/3 of my compact fluorescents = CFL lit almost full brightness. Apparent these pulse circuits compensated very well for the much lower than usual voltage. Pulse circuit do however produce considerable AM radio interference especially an inch or so from the lamp.
Is a linear lamp a 4 foot or longer florescent tube? The decades old tubes produced about 90 l/w, I think. So 110 l/w is not a big improvement and not quite as good as the best LEDs. The LEDs are much more costly except for 10 lumins or less applications, but longer life can make them a good buy, unless your utility is bad about sending you voltage spikes. My guess is LEDs are more vulnerable to voltage spikes than other types of lighting.
I have a white noise generator, which also can produce other restful sounds. It has a transparent case and several approximately one cubic centimeter light sources, About three lumen each on the circuit board. Would these be LECs = light emitting capacitors? They quit lighting the second week, so I replaced the 12 volt power cube with a 7.5 volt power cube and the white noise generator is still operational after 10,000 hours of operation. Neil
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Permalink Reply by Walt Barrett on
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My solution to the lighting question is that I have purchased twenty samples and will test them all for myself. If I can read comfortably by them I will consider that a good start.
Walt
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Permalink Reply by Walt Barrett on
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We seem to have some really bright people here commenting and I think that is great! I would like to ask some opinions on a different subject this morning. Back in the seventies I built a bunch of water to water heat pumps to be used in conjunction with baseboard hot water heat. In the process of testing, one of the experiments was to try to freeze a 275 gallon uninsulated tank of water that was in the basement of an ordinary home. We ran it for days and could not freeze the tank. It was hooked up to the thermostat. It sweat profusely and it dumped a lot of 140° F into the base board. The COP on water to water heat pumps can vary from 3 to 1 up to 6 to 1 kw.
It was obviously extracting heat through the walls of the tank. Now here is the question. Lately we have read a great deal about grey water systems and my thought is that gray water is a lot warmer that just plain standing water in a tank. If my thinking is correct we should be able to drastically reduce the cost of a heat pump system by leaving out solar collectors or a ground loop, or drilling wells etc.
I'm sure you all know the drill. A system like that which is actually double tasking seems very practical to me and it is actually two systems in one saving energy and reusing the grey water for toilet flushing and watering gardens and shrubs.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Walt
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Permalink Reply by neil cox on
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I see no reason why chilling the grey water with a heat pump would be inferior to chilling water in a well. The only problem is your septic tank might freeze in very cold weather and /or the bacterial action reduced, because you lowered the temperature of the grey water. If you don't put your grey water in the septic tank, then it might freeze while stored at very low ambient temperature. Storing cold grey water in a large uninsulated tank in the basement, likely will not freeze and will reduce the humidity in the basement if you catch the sweat on the tank without letting much of it evaporate. It could cool the basement to 40 degrees f which would make the floors colder on the next level. Neil
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Permalink Reply by Michael Kershaw on -
It seems to me there are 3 problems with all these solutions which will need to be overcome before they can really make an impact:
1. Readiness
- almost none of these are truly ready to be used in a meaningful way. Most of them of the ones suggested here are still in some stage of R&D. White LED's and OLED's aren't quite ready for the manufacturing stage yet (though they have solved pretty much all the issue listed in the lab setting)
2. Scale
-There is very little production capacity. Even PV (which is horribly inefficient and incredibly expensive) is basically maxed out at every level. Yes, you can buy them - but not in any volume at reasonable cost and not the newer ones that have a more reasonable level of efficiency.
3. Cost
- The cost is simply too high for the average person to afford. LED lights (that will actually work) cost around $60 per bulb; I won't even go into solar and wind for personal use.
What's the solution?
Simple: more early adopters who care less about cost and more about having and using the products.
Just like any tech, initial product cost is high - look at any groundbreaking product (VCR's, CD's, DVD's, Cell Phones, etc.....)
We need people willing to spend the money to buy the companies time to ramp up the manufacturing process and figure out how to reduce cost. That's it. Either spend money or wait until the market provides the products at a reasonable cost. You can't have both.
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Permalink Reply by Walt Barrett on
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People should start with the little things that they can afford. every gallon of fuel saved puts us ahead in more ways than one. The market is now flooded with small reasonably priced items that will lower your energy bills without spending a fortune. You can also take the DIY route for solar hot water and pool heating. It's not rocket science and solar hot water heating is one of the most efficient ways to save energy on a dollar for dollar invested basis. The idea is for each of us to do something-- anything besides just talk about it. I would like to hear what some else has done, like has anyone changed to energy light bulbs yet?
It's not much, but it's a start. If everyone saved even a gallon or more of oil a week the numbers are staggering.
Walt
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Permalink Reply by Michael Kershaw on
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I appreciate your position and your reply suggests I should elaborate. Personally, I've switched almost all my light bulbs to CF. I tried to do LED, but it's not a quality light source yet and the cost is prohibitive. I also drive a diesel car which I try to fuel with biodiesel whenever possible. I looked into a solar water heater, but the cost is prohibitive and I couldn't figure out how to do it myself without contaminating the water.
I'm a geek and often experiment with DIY tech when I have time. I've been working on a hydrogen electrolyzer to add to my engine to further reduce emissions (not quite ready). I've also built small-scale vertical-axis windmills generators - but even as a DIY project they are too expensive to be cost-effective or affordable in the short term.
The problem is that it's not enough and the tech isn't readily available or affordable enough to go much farther.
I already pay a premium for my fuel and light bulbs, as well as spend a lot of "spare" cash on experimenting with tech that I can't afford to buy.
My theory is still sound, though: If we can convince more people who do have the cash to spend it on these products then the price will come down to the point where it will be accessible to more people and be able to make a real impact.
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Permalink Reply by Walt Barrett on
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Hi Michael,
I think what you are doing is great! I believe your theory is sound too. If enough of the wealthier people buy into the program the increased production might bring the price down as you stated.
If you live in a warm climate DIY solar is cheaper than dirt. If you liver in a cold climate it's more expensive. If you want to do it please read my simple solar blogs on my Pickens page and then get back to me. Even if you live in a cold climate you can do a non antifreeze system for seven or eight months of the year. If you are interested please give me more details and I will help you. I've done it for years and know the tricks. Also, there are very inexpensive vertical wind turbines available from China now. They have everything!
Thanks,
Walt
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Permalink Reply by neil cox on
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I'm seeing perhaps 5% of the cars with LED back up lights and/or headlights, so there likely are some manufacture rejects available, but perhaps pricy. These likely draw 4 or 5 watts from a 12 volt battery, but produce about as much light as a 40 watt incandecent, which is enough for poor folks per room. The light is in a narow beam equivelent to more than 100 watts at the center of the illuminated spot. A small photovoltaic panel would keep the battery charged if you turn off lights that are not needed. Otherwise you need a 100 watt PV panel to keep the battery charged. The 100 amp hour 12 volt deep cycle (or marine) batteries are only slightly more costly than smaller batteries, so 100 to 115 amp hours is likely best. On a full charge that will light ten 4 watt LEDs, even if the sun does not shine for 30 hours. Neil
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Permalink Reply by Charles Ivie on -
There is a huge number of white LED's available on the internet. Check EBAY or do a GOOGLE or YAHOO search for "white led" You will be surprised.
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Permalink Reply by Bryan on -
Hi,
I'm new here but wanted to toss out an idea I've had for a while to see what people thought. I live in Memphis and we are currently trying to get rid of the Pyramid Arena. ( Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_Arena ) As the Wiki says, the City council of Memphis and Shelby County are trying to sell it to Bass Pro Shops to have it turned into some kind of aquarium or something.
I have another idea I wanted to present but I want to know the validity of doing this:
1. Sell bass pro shops to the TVA ( Tennessee Valley Authority) or MLGW ( Memphis Light Gas Water) or an interested third party. The city is trying to dump it cheap i'm sure, it's old and hasn't been used for anything in years due to legal wrangling with the Memphis Grizzlies.
2. After sale, replace the steel panels on the outside of all sides of the pyramid with solar panels. The sides alone are 321 ft. tall and 591 ft. at the base. Destroy the parking lot and put in solar array there on pre-flattened land. Using the example given by a solar power tower, have the apex be a prism to refract light down all sides once hit. Also, you could put a focal array inside the apex to harness the light to purely create steam for turbines.
3. Proximity to the river allows for hydroelectric turbines to use the mighty force of the mississippi to feed power into the city, at the same time use tubes to suck water into the pyramid.
4. Now the fun, as a cooling system, have water run at constant pressurized levels behind the solar panels for cooling, given angle, heat and basics of gravity, once the general impurities are deposited at the base, there's a possibility for steam or purified water to be at higher levels of the pyramid. Thus creating a large coolant/water filtration system. Install further filtration systems inside and now the pyramid is a water purification plant.
This is a sports arena which means it already has most of the setup for major utilities there, they may need reinforcing though. It also bears a HUGE amount of space inside and underneath where further research labs, solar panel creation and general JOBS can be done.
It would reinforce the area's economy, bring decent power, water and JOBS to a city and could lead to a furthering in growing the awareness of solar energy.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Oh btw, my thoughts on alternative fuels for cars are to make the patents of the major car companies Open Source. They are sitting on the necessary technology, they just suck up too much money from oil companies to use it.
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