PickensPlan

Inexpensive CNG conversion kit for cars.

I realize that most modern cars have complex elaborate ignition computers that regulate the flow of air and gasoline into the engine using a vast array of sensors to prevent the need for tuneups, and improve ignition stability and gas mileage. I realize also that any conversion kit to CNG brings a new set of ignition parameters to the table, and that existing sensors, and computer settings will not work for optimal CNG ignition. Howerver that being said, it seems to me that a standardized electronic adapter could be created to "Fool" the vastly differing ignition computer systems in a "Standard" way, since the sensors used on most cars are nearly identical in electrical characteristics. (The computers are very different, but the output of the sensors is nearly identical) So to make an inexpensive "Universal" conversion kit, all you need to do is "Alter" the signal reports being sent back to the ignition computer from the sensors in a "Standard" way and you have a universally compatible conversion kit system. Then all cars could be converted with the same conversion kit. Has anyone approached the conversion kit problem from this angle? If this issue is taken care of then the rest of the conversion kit could be an EPA approved standard kit, and we wouldn't need to have every model year of every manufacturer go through the expensive EPA approval process. The pre-approved Universal kit could be used for any car and the mountains of Government "Red Tape" would be removed from the CNG conversion process.

Tags: CNG, Conversion, Gas, Inexpensive, Natural, Universal, kits

Views: 6985

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by James King on January 3, 2011 at 6:49pm
Check out this excerpt from proposed legislation from the last congressional session, SB1408. Even Congress thinks the EPA is draconian in its unchecked wielding of executive granted authority. Maybe the 112th Congress will make progress towards cleaner air and energy security... The 111th congress achieved virtually nothing on any front, and did not even see fit to extend the tax incentives for alternative fuel vehicles... losers. Keep writing your congressmen to support SB1408 and HR1863 in the next session. 

SEC. 403. SENSE OF THE SENATE ON EPA CERTIFICATION OF NGV RETROFIT KITS.

It is the sense of the Senate that the Environmental Protection Agency should streamline the process for certification of natural gas vehicle retrofit kits to promote energy security while still fulfilling the mission of the Clean Air Act

Permalink Reply by RGM on June 15, 2009 at 2:59am
Just a comment, possibly off the reservation, but has anyone looked at cng/electric hybrids? If you are going to convert a vehicle from gasoline to cng, why not a hybrid?
Permalink Reply by konaman on July 19, 2009 at 10:10pm
Barry:

This subject has been discussed at nauseum in other blogs on this site and others. Problem is more than ignition, and has to do with Fuel densities also. While your simplistic solution is common sense, the EPA is anything but common sense. There are kits that exist RIGHT NOW, but to use them, you have to 'fool' the computer (OBD system) on the car to allow the use of the kit. Problem is: EPA is in bed with the BIG 3, and the OBD is 'off limits' for manipulation. The Irony is: the cars would run better, and burn cleaner than they currently do, but the EPA are a bunch of idiots who are the lap dogs of CARB. Make no mistake, the current kits would cost about $500-700, not including the tank - which is the most expensive part of the conversion. IMPCO Technologies supposedly just came out with a system that is EPA approved, and does not mess with the OBD. I am just wondering at what cost is this system? If the President can wave a wand and spend all kinds of money we don't have, why can't he make the EPA finally pull their heads out of the Political A-holes they have been dealing with, and finally get us the relief we need?
Permalink Reply by Keith on August 24, 2009 at 4:28pm
One also forgets that the revenue generated from a gallon of fuel, gasoline or diesel for the government, is huge and there are a lot of palms to grease EPA makes it very difficult for real progress. There are systems out there that give you the benefits of conversion without going the complete route. And still run on the primary fuel. This company offers an alternative, to complete conversions, for example. www.tgi-inc.net.
Permalink Reply by Tom Bailey on July 20, 2009 at 5:13am
City and the knit pickin permit and fine process brought this plan -http://push.pickensplan.com/forum/topics/biodiesel-demise
to a complete stop, which translated into loss of major funding.

Gov inclusion is needed but all to often it causes a lot of delays.

Best; Tom
Permalink Reply by Michael Routh on September 14, 2009 at 6:26am
The biggest problems manufacturers are running in to is the EPA is requiring any units to be tested on any/all make/model/year vehicle. If you have a '95 Chevy Suburban, the conversion is relatively easy. TBI injection systems (fuel injection into carb) free up much of the problems. The biggest problem is that companies that make the systems usually don't sell CNG systems to the end user. Companies like BAF Technologies ( 2415 Beatrice St.Dallas, TX 75208 (214) 231-1450) Only deal with vehicle manufacturers and dealers. AS it stands, you really only have four companies who truly manufacture what is needed. They can all be found at http://www.cleanfuelsohio.org/cngconversions.php. Of all of them, I found only one, Baytech Corporation, who might be able to supply for many Chevy trucks with 6.0 gas engines. For diesels, Hybrid Fuel Systems, if you can get in touch with them. I had no luck!
Permalink Reply by Barry Mead on September 14, 2009 at 6:38am
This has been my complaint all along. The EPA is actually INTERFERING with attempts to clean up the environment. Their oppressive, rule making, and expensive testing requirements, have made it impossible (financially speaking) for users to convert their existing cars to CNG. Baytech wants $20,000 to convert late model cars. They only keep the EPA licenses current for about 2 years back, and only for the most popular models. So if you have a car that is older than 2007, or a model that is not extremely popular, you can forget about converting it to CNG.
Permalink Reply by SJC on September 14, 2009 at 8:43am
It is much easier and more effective to convert big rigs than all the makes and models of cars. Big rig tractors get 4 mpg, go 100,000 miles per year and use HALF of all the fuel for vehicles. It is a good idea to keep our eyes on the prize and not get side tracked with ideological rants. The prize is reducing imported oil, we can use cellulose ethanol E85 for the rest.
Permalink Reply by Keith on September 14, 2009 at 9:05am
That is why the dual fuel option such as propane or cng injection is the answer. While it does not eliminate diesel or gasoline completely, it puts a large dent in consumption. It does not "tamper" with OEM equipment and for the time being, circumvents the need for EPA certification.
I have found companies selling "parts" for a cng conversion, which also gets around the requirement. We are fortunate here, in the respect that we can install these kinds of units on our own and it does not affect registration of the vehicle, etc.
No one has 75k per engine to test. and just where does that 75K go? EPA verification is approximately 30k, and there is no grant money available to pursue these ideas or even get assistance with testing, until you have one or the other. Viscious circle, that ensures, we get nowhere. Oil has it's grip, firmly upon our government. Jimmy Carter, instituted the EPA, in his administration, and other than collect fees and impose regulations, have really not done one thing to "improve" or protect the environement.
Permalink Reply by Michael Routh on September 17, 2009 at 1:41pm
Now Barry, that's not totally true. Because of the ease of the older vehicles, it is more feasible to convert. I have a '93 Suburban w/ TBI. It, as is, gets 22mpg hiway. It will cost about $1650 to convert to bi-fuel plus cost of tanks. The biggest problem with this, I live in Houston, and we have no CNG service stations open to the public with in a reasonable distance. With out home fill up, it wouldn't work. We had CNG before George W. Shrub became gov.
Permalink Reply by SJC on September 20, 2009 at 11:10am
My nearest CNG is 20 miles away, so CNG in the garage would be viable, but the compressor costs, the conversion costs and I might pay it back in 5 or more years. There are lots of pickups here that commute to work outside the area. A conversion to dual fuel would work for them, but so many are just making a living now that a $10,000 conversion would break them. I think it makes more sense to convert big rigs, but there you have a $50,000 conversion and have to provide refill facilities. There is lots to do between and idea and reality and we need to get there soon.
Permalink Reply by Frank on February 2, 2011 at 2:13pm

I see that this topic has resurfaced and, having read through all 131 postings so far, I think there are few things that need some clarification. Commercial CNG injection conversions have already been available for modern, fuel injected vehicles for several years now. The better aftermarket systems (Impco/BRC, Prins, Technocarb, etc) do NOT fool the vehicle's PCM and do not interfere with the vehicle's other emission control systems either.  However, fixes (like fuel rail pressure simulators for returnless fuel systems) are sometimes required for some vehicles.  Although certified CNG conversions can be expensive because the conversion system manufacturer may become the vehicle's manufacturer of record if it changes the vehicle's PCM programming and/or emission controls, the components themselves are not that expensive.  An economy 8-cylinder CNG injection parts package currently costs $1663 for all of the underhood components.  Although inexpensive, parts packages are not recommended for the DIYer as no tech support is included in the price and the typical DIYer generally doesn't have the training to ensure that the system complies with NFPA 52.

CNG injection conversions work by intercepting the signals sent by the PCM, modifying them, and then rerouting them to the CNG injectors. Other than adding CNG injector nozzles to the intake manifold and interfacing with the engine's wiring harness, no changes are made to the engine so all existing systems remain intact and fully functional.  The CNG system's ECU has built-in injection map that, when correctly set up, ensures that the fuel trims on CNG are exactly the same as they would be on gasoline. Although CNG should have it's own ignition timing strategy, the CNG system's ECU makes no changes to ignition timing as this would constitute tampering. When operating on CNG, more advance is allowed (as programmed by the vehicle OEM) because CNG's high octane number prevents the engine's knock sensors from retarding the timing.

Any EPA or CARB-certified CNG conversion starts off as a universal CNG conversion. After vehicle-specific programming (fuel maps, etc) and mounting brackets are created and the system is lab-tested, it can become a certified system. The problem is the that the lab-testing is extremely expensive and the certificates have to renewed annually.  Potentially, if a gasoline-only vehicle won't pass the EPA's alternative fuel testing requirements (like the SHED test), the conversion system manufacturer would have to also provide fixes to the gasoline system to ensure that the converted vehicle meets those EPA requirements. Because of the low demand for certified systems, the expense of obtaining and maintaining certification prevents aftermarket conversion system manufacturers from offering certified conversion kits for all but the highest demand fleet applications.  I know that people on this forum and other CNG forums are clamoring for CARB or EPA-certified systems but, if they actually put their money where their mouth is, there would be no shortage of certified systems.

As for older carbureted and pre-OBDII vehicles, CNG conversions are extremely straight-forward.  Typically, these have done as bi-fuel systems because of the limited range of the CNG cylinders but straight (mono-fuel) conversions are doable.  The engine-specific components (mixer & regulator) are very similar to propane conversions but are more challenging to do nowadays because the necessary adapters and electronic fixes are becoming obsolete.

For a discussion about tampering and the EPA, see Unraveling the EPA Code, follow the money...

RSS

© 2013   Created by PickensPlan.   Powered by

Badges  |  Community Guidelines  | Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service