Our Energy Independence Problem Is Solved

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on February 17, 2010 at 4:56am

Since you have professed experience in operating a car on alcohol perhaps you could tell us the MPG that you experienced.

The Deuceman

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Permalink Reply by Ultimate eBook Store.com on March 9, 2010 at 7:38pm

I don't have a car that I've used alcohol with. However people use alcohol at the race track and if you watch the video you might learn something. Seeing as Brasil has some of the same cars we have that run on alcohol only and not having any hear doesn't make sense. And if you can make batches of alcohol fuel using seaweed which breath Co2 an alleged greenhouse gas you get a win win. The documentary Alcohol Can Be A Gas discusses a lot of stuff. The only thing that is wrong is the whole global warming thing which was exposed with Climategate.

Long story short cars can be made a lot more efficient when I use to take one of my cars out racing and put high octane fuel in I would have to have the injectors put less fuel in the cylinders. The same applies to alcohol it is a high octane fuel so if the cars ECU is programmed for alcohol you should get better MPG.

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on March 10, 2010 at 12:36am

Brasil has some of the same cars we have that run on alcohol only and not having any hear doesn't make sense'>>
Yeah, I guess as a nation of energy consumers and innovators of transportation, we just can't seem to get a handle on them technologically swift "Brasillians"


I think you need to learn how a car engine WORKS first. You need to brush up on a little thing called btu content of various combustionable fuels, ala, diesel, CNG, gasoline, and yes, alcohols of various distillation sources.

The only thing alcohol has going for it is fast burning characteristics. Put enough air into an engine with the appropriate alcohol and you can get a lot of power. But again, the COST of this liquid is the question I posed to you. HOW much is it PER GALLON. For your information, a gallon of gasoline has approx. 114,000btu's heat energy in it. Now, go get educated and quit posting "what you've HEARD' on the internet.

The Deuceman

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Permalink Reply by Ultimate eBook Store.com on March 11, 2010 at 12:41am

What's amazing is that you managed to ignore all the information. Everyone is talking about energy independence and yet something like this is on the table however, it gets ignored. And the point with Brasil is why we don't have cars that at least run on both if the US is really serious about being energy independent.

Somethings are just common sense the COST of the liquid is not the issue. It comes down to what we have been told "we want energy independence" and what can be done now. Well let's see they keep pushing hydrogen which has always been years away. So what is available right now gas, alcohol(doesn't have to be from food sources), diesel, , biodiesel, CNG, compressed air(yes Tata Motors has some) and electric(including hybrids).

P.S. The reason they are used in race cars is because it burns cooler which helps with preventing knock. Also when it comes to BTU's the only thing that matters in the end is how efficient you are able to maximize the energy output. Higher is not always better if it is wasted efficiency is the key.

So back to the documentary tell me exactly were the holes are in using alcohol as an alternative fuel. See I'm thinking to the future if all the gates are open we will never have to worry about someone cornering the market like we have with oil.

And reading stuff on the net is just like the news I never believe what does not make sense or what can't be proved. Some of the most interesting news gets buried in the back of the newspaper behind octomom stories. Now if you are referring to Climategate as being HEARD on the internet it was mainstream news however, like most real news did not get much coverage.

Now as far as being educated that is the ability to literally repeat what you are told. I consider myself an objective thinker meaning you can put as much stuff in front of my face as you want. The big picture for me is that what I see needs to make sense. This is the exact reason I don't watch TV as it is filled with tons of opinions and not much in the way of facts.

Regards,
Ultimate eBook Store

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on March 11, 2010 at 3:10am

Here is a site giving out relative densities of various fuels. Starting at the top and progressively working down, you see the heat density falling off. Alcohols are WAY below even gasoline. Learn this chart. It is the first stop for someone on the way to selecting an energy source. Note the prominence of Uranium 235 at the top. .
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Energy_density

Which alcohol did you have in mind?

Methyl alcohol (methanol) CH3OH
Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) CH3CH2OH
n - propyl alcohol CH3CH2CH2OH
Isopropyl alcohol (propanol -2) CH3CHOHCH3
n-butyl alcohol (butanol -1) CH3(CH2)2CH2OH
butyl alcohol (butanol -2) CH3CH2CHOHCH3
n-hexyl alcohol (hexanol-1) CH3(CH2)4CH2OH
n-heptyl alcohol (heptanol-1) CH3(CH2)5CH2OH
n-octyl alcohol (octanol-1) CH3(CH2)6CH2OH
ethylene glycol CH2OHCH2OH
glycerol CH2OHCHOHCH2OH

What's amazing is that you managed to ignore all the information.
I am IGNORING old and discredited information. True, alcohol CAN be a gas. (gas in this vernacular is referring to the idea of an automotive fuel as being the heat source for the propulsion of a car) But than so can any number of other things. Here is a basic fact of using ethanol as a fuel for cars in this country. Assuming corn as the feedstock (not the best candidate) we would have to plant ALL of the surface area of this country from the state of Maine, down to the Kentucky Tennessee border and west to the Indiana Illinois state line in a corn crop sufficient to run our CURRENT fleet of cars and trucks. This means ALL of the cities, towns, National Forest, private property, all of that land lying in the region I just specified. Not going to happen.


Everyone is talking about energy independence and yet something like this is on the table however, it gets ignored.
You don’t give the citizens of this country (and its engineers and scientists) much credit for smarts do you? You read a book or listen to some 60’s Hippie with a backyard still and you go all ga ga. THIS is your “source” of cutting edge news and technology?

Here is a blog on the “brilliance” of David Blume. As you can see, they are not much impressed with him. http://www.amazon.com/David-Blume-Sage-or-Crank/forum/Fx1M9FU2YV7MZ...


And the point with Brasil is why we don't have cars that at least run on both if the US is really serious about being energy independent.

What you do NOT know is that the Ethanol industry in this country gets a production stipen (actually a Federal subsidy) of .51 cents a gallon for distilled ethanol. At the SAME time the Feds put a .50 cent per gallon import duty on ANY alcohol based automotive fuel to “protect” this fledgling industry. There is NO conspiracy to do this industry in. The industry is doing itself in by virtue of the fact that it CANNOT compete with gasoline at ANY price that gasoline is being presented to the people. We are NOW back to my original post, WHAT is the MPG of your alcohol and HOW MUCH per gallon does it cost? It is a BASIC question. An OLD question. And your dilemma of “why do the Heathen Rage” when presented with YOUR version of utopia in the form of alcohol as a gas, will not be solved UNTIL you answer this question.

Somethings are just common sense the COST of the liquid is not the issue.
This is the problem with you people who have NO understanding of how things work in this world. The COMMON SENSE fact looking you dead in the face is this, energy is THE source of our production base in this country. Production is a competitive thing. You must make your product COMPETITIVE in quality, quantity, availability, and lastly, PRICE. Since energy costs are integral to the pricing of almost ANY product, it follows that the “cost of liquid” Is THE issue. But just to pop your bubble on another point of alcohol, it is NOT available in quantity, nor even in the market it should be plentiful in, the farm belt. Currently, gas here in Georgia CAN have as much as 10% ethanol by volume, MOST refineries do not use it in their blends as it it too erratic in availability. GM and Ford make pump ready cars to run on ethanol but no one has ever seen the opportunity to fill up with anything APPROACHING E-25, LET ALONE E-85. IT JUST AIN’T THERE. I traveled to Upper Peninsula MI last winter (08-09) with an E-85 equipped GM Buick. Did not see ONE advertisement for ANY gasoline/ethanol blends. And I went RIGHT through the heart of corn country, Indiana and Illinois. NOT A WORD.

It comes down to what we have been told "we want energy independence" and what can be done now. Well let's see they keep pushing hydrogen which has always been years away. So what is available right now gas, alcohol(doesn't have to be from food sources), diesel, , biodiesel, CNG, compressed air(yes Tata Motors has some) and electric(including hybrids).
Compressed air, electricity, and hydrogen are NOT , REPEAT, NOT a fuel. They are energy carriers. As such they depend on the expenditure of energy to produce them so that they can be used in a car. I suggest you read up on the physics principal of the “Law of Conservation of Energy”. It will open your eyes as to why these products are, AND WILL continue to be, a pipe dream in the minds of those pushing them.

P.S. The reason they are used in race cars is because it burns cooler which helps with preventing knock. NO! The reason that alcohol is used is because of its ability to mix well with air, and burn completely. It is called throughput. You can burn MORE alcohol in a given period of time that you can gasoline. As such, the throughput is higher and thus the power. The MPG is somewhere south of “nutting”. Also when it comes to BTU's the only thing that matters in the end is how efficient you are able to maximize the energy output. See above statement on “nuttin” Higher is not always better if it is wasted efficiency is the key.

Burning ANY fuel with ANY level of energy efficiency in an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) dooms you to the pegged efficiency of that engine. Currently, and for the last 50 years, the ICE has been able to demonstrate only a 27% efficiency in energy conversion to mass propulsion. Obviously, if you START with a higher btu (energy) content, you will get farther, all things being equal. If you can get an alcohol based fuel for 1/5th the price of gasoline and the btu content is only 1/2 that of gasoline, than YES, you would be better off. But you CAN’T do that. It has been a commercial impossibility to do that.

So back to the documentary tell me exactly were the holes are in using alcohol as an alternative fuel. Again, USING ALCOHOL as a fuel is NOT the issue. The issue is PRICE and AVAILABILITY.

See I'm thinking to the future if all the gates are open we will never have to worry about someone cornering the market like we have with oil. Again, you do not know your corn cobs from your oil wells. This country HAS (in undiscovered reserves, both on shore and off shore) all of the crude oil it needs to operate well until the the year 2050. But as long as you have the left REFUSING to let the oil companies drill for it, you will ALWAYS be on the outside looking in as a crude oil consumer. It is NOT the AMOUNT of oil we HAVE that makes us “crude oil independent”, it is the fact that the WHOLE world is now onto the wonders of crude oil as an energy source. We ALL sip from the SAME pool of crude oil. It may be PRODUCED in different parts of the world, but is it the SAME pool of oil. If a Texas oil tycoon pumps a barrel of oil from his well, he does NOT insure that that barrel of oil is CONSUMED in this country. He puts that barrel of oil ONTO the world market and get a WORLD market price for it. Iy YOU want that oil, YOU must pay the WORLD MARKET price for it. If you don’t than shortages occur and you now find yourself ENERGY DEPENDANT-on oil.

But WHY oil as the energy of choice? Because it is the ONLY energy source that has the ENERGY DENSITY to provide us with the means of heavy lifting that s needed to propel our cars and trucks as they go about their daily work. Our livelihoods and indeed our whole industrial organization is based upon it. AND NOTHING IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE WILL TAKE IT’S PLACE-NOTHING. There IS NO replacement for the energy density of crude oil. Just because car CAN RUN on ethanol does not mean that we can do so economically.

And reading stuff on the net is just like the news I never believe what does not make sense or what can't be proved.


SoTELL ME, JUST where did you scrnge up this David Blume clown, from a long lost Mother Earth Catalog?
Some of the most interesting news gets buried in the back of the newspaper behind octomom stories. Now if you are referring to Climategate as being HEARD on the internet it was mainstream news however, like most real news did not get much coverage. Blume is a closet conspiracy nut. He sees a bogey man behind every “failure” of his “Alcohol is Gas” premise. But HERE is a REVELED conspiracy to subvert the presentation of information to prove or disprove climate change data and I don’t hear a DAMN thing about it. WHY IS THAT do you suppose? An inconvenient conspiracy perhaps in the grand scheme to hood wink the world with junk science.

Now as far as being educated that is the ability to literally repeat what you are told. NO! To be educated is to be taught to THINK. Not WHAT to think, but HOW to organize thinking to come to the proper truth of a subject. Education gives you background to find out things. I have given you a simple question to answer, “HOW MUCH does it cost” and you have given me the depth of your education and worldly awareness by saying that the issue is not relevant. Pure stupidly.


I consider myself an objective thinker meaning you can put as much stuff in front of my face as you want. The big picture for me is that what I see needs to make sense. In other words, DAMN THE FACTS, on with pushing the agenda forward. You are a dyed in the wool Left Wing Democrat for sure. Create Utopia in your mind and set sail for the shores NOW. Never mind that the place does not exist. You NEED to get a grip on reality first, than come on here and make an INFORMED argument. David Blume is NOT an informed argument. He is a Hippie that got stuck in the 60’s.

The Deuceman

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