EPA & CNG Conversion

We need to get the restrictive EPA regulations regarding CNG conversion eliminated.

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Permalink Reply by Rob O'Neill on August 21, 2008 at 7:09am: Yo Dude,
Go for it.
How would the EPA know what you do if the parts dealer or yourself never tells them.

First it depends on how adept you are at mechanics or do you have a mechanic confidant.

The conversion rig is about the same for the just about every natural aspirated carbureted motor. The fuel-injected gets a bit tricky. It's all about size and fuel consumption. A good place to start is at Propane/gasoline multi-fuel kits. They are very similar but the "jets" are much larger for NG.

Look at UK sites for Euro + Japanese cars.
I good way to avoid those who would report you (have you ever seen a EPA cop?) would be to enquire about an Electrical Generation plant Conversion. Most older motors have been used in somebody's Gen-set manufacture. CNG kits are very popular in this area.

Let us know what you come up with.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Andy-Paul on August 21, 2008 at 8:33pm: I would suggest, if you choose to take this route (because I sure as heck won't), that you consider another difference between propane and NG systems. LPG liquifies at about 100psi give or take a little for ambient temperature. CNG systems are at 3000 or 3600 psi. That's a whole different ballgame if the high pressure end comes apart on you, and please remember that it can kill you--and that's a permanent solution to high fuel bills I am not ready to try, yet. If you choose to fly a stub toward the EPA, at least have the sense to pay attention to the NFPA, the tank specifications according to USDOT, ASME, ANSI, and ASE(?). They are about saving lives in the here and now.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Larry Lance on August 22, 2008 at 7:28am: This setup has been used in Italy for 20 years using LPG. They even had LPG gas stations. Alot of the problems here is GM, Ford, and oil companies.
The car lube places state change your oil at 3000 miles. The manufacture states 5000 to 7500 depending on the manufacture. The normal American will listen to the lube companies and not read the owners manual and pay for something that is not needed.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Andy-Paul on August 22, 2008 at 5:22pm: Larry;

Just to make sure we're all on the same page here:

LPG means 'liquified petroleum gas' (basically propane) which you buy for your grill in small canisters which are pressurized to about 100psi. Cars and trucks can run on it just fine, but it is still a petroleum product.

CNG refers to 'compressed natural gas' which you compress into a tank in your car going from a gas company supply line running at 5psi or less (ours is at 2psi in my part of NC) to 3600psi, which still is not liquified. Pickens Plan supports the latter, not the former, and while it is not uncommon to find nat gas around oil deposits, it is not a petroleum product.

Also, on a purely historical note, the Italians have been using CNG since some time in the 60's.

andy-paul; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on October 18, 2009 at 9:54pm: <<Dont waste my time with the trivial. I am interested in Dual Fuel gasoline and Nat Gas vehicles and the necessary conversion processes, ON THE CHEAP, and then we worry about the EPA and the likes.>>

BOOK Dan O, Dan O

The Deuceman; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by David Smith on August 22, 2008 at 1:57pm

There has been a lot of discussion that places the cost of a CNG fueling station at 1 million dollars per instillation. The info I have found points to around 100,00.00 dollars per dispenser unit. Here is an excerpt and attachment of a few projects around the country. The Manning station included a large shop building in the construction cost.

Excerpt.
GRAND OPENING OF UNM COMPRESSED NATURAL GAS FUELING STATION SET
The University of New Mexico and the New Mexico Energy, Minerals and Natural Resources Department (NMEMNRD) have teamed up to help the Land of Enchantment Clean City Coalition meet its alternative fuel use goals.
The University will be assisting Albuquerque, the first city in New Mexico designated as a “Clean City,” attain its goals with its new Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Fueling Station. A grand opening celebration is scheduled for Wednesday, April 11, from 11:30 a.m. - 1 p.m. at the fueling station located in the southeast corner of the “G” lot on the east side of University Blvd., between Lomas and Indian School, N.E.
The N.M. Energy, Minerals and Natural Resources Department helped UNM fund the project with a $75,000 grant. The University contracted with the Public Service Company of New Mexico to install the compressor, dispenser and building for a cost of $185,000 on UNM property. PNM owns and will maintain the compressor and storage tanks, while UNM owns the dispenser, credit card reader, site and building. The City of Albuquerque will use the station as a customer for its CNG-fueled vehicles.
“This project is a model for any public-private partnership,” said Louise Martinez of NMEMNRD’s Energy Conservation Division. “The City of Albuquerque, PNM, UNM and our department all worked together to make this project a success. Not only will all project partners benefit, but so will Albuquerque’s air quality.”
A light lunch will be served during the grand-opening celebration with some interesting details about this unusual project. Dupuy Bateman, Associate Vice President Auxiliary Services at UNM, will introduce Mayor Jim Baca, who will speak on Albuquerque and the Clean Cities program. Chris Wentz, director of Energy Conservation and Management Division at N.M. Energy, Minerals and Natural Resources will discuss their role, and Erick Seelinger, project engineer from PNM, will discuss PNM’s role in the project.
http://www.unm.edu/news/Releases/Mar27fuel.htm

Attachments:

Valencia station cost.pdf, 42 KB
2005_04085_Banning_NG_Sta.pdf, 68 KB

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Permalink Reply by Andy-Paul on August 22, 2008 at 5:10pm: The size of the station matters. Here in NC, as of summer 2007, a small station (42 LDVs to break even, and capable of taking in another 25-40 LDVs, depending on fill-up intervals and individual tank capacity) would cost about US$300k, according to my calculations, using the best knowledge I could find. This station would have used a Fuelmaker FMQ8-36 and a three-base filling system--three tanks for the three different pressure levels--with 2 dispensers and no slow-fueling capacity. I did not include the price of land for the station, because the real estate market varies so widely here.

andy-paul; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by David Smith on August 22, 2008 at 7:19pm: Andy that was a great analysis.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Andy-Paul on August 23, 2008 at 7:47am: David;

This is a tad off-topic, but here is my concern. Although I applaud Mr. Picken's decision to make a push for nat gas as a transportation fuel, I choose to distrust his motives--in this case I mean be neutral toward their intent, whether good or bad for him or me or the rest of us.

Therefore, the best response I can think of is to set up CNG fueling stations as cooperative, locally owned ventures. That would mean small, for starters: fifty families/small businesses can afford to pitch in $6k each for a fueling station, buy the product at a premium over cost that would cover admin & maintenance and a little seed money for the next installation. When we start talking big stations, that's where the little guys lose out, and the dangers of Big grow. Track the prices of CNG from Clean Energy stations in the past year, and I think you will see what I am talking about. Along the same lines, when an unidentified petroleum executive was asked why diesel prices were staying up when gasoline prices were going down, the response was "because we can."

The diesel co-ops in upper Canada and certain parts of the US northern plains have done an excellent job of taking care of their members and giving the members a chance to be pro-active toward fuel prices rather than re-active, and that is the best response we can offer to anyone who gets more interested in their own money than their neighbors' welfare.

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Permalink Reply by David Smith on August 23, 2008 at 11:43am

Andy-Paul,

I agree with you on co-ops being able to develop smaller scale infrastructure and control the cost of such instillations. The rest of the world has used Microsystems for years and they would be perfect for co-ops since the represent a much smaller investment.

The big oil organizations will fight the use of natural gas to the end since it threatens their own business of fuel delivery. The large manufacturers who work on retrofitting fleets will also fight this to the end since it will threaten their dominance in the market.

We in America have been trying to convert fleets for 20 years with marginal success. That is why I think the individual retrofit of vehicles is imperative for success. We cannot wait another 20 years to find out if the fleet transformation is successful. We need to do it all and we need to do it now.

I have attached some web links of companies that produce CNG station equipment. Some of the configurations are expensive and others are not.

http://www.mckenziecorp.com/compression_packages.htm
http://safe-cng.com/plants.php

Attachments:

C1418.550_73785[1].pdf, 2 MB

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on August 23, 2008 at 10:54pm: << The large manufacturers who work on retrofitting fleets will also fight this to the end since it will threaten their dominance in the market.>>

Just WHO are these people?

The Deuceman; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by David Smith on August 24, 2008 at 8:18am: Below are some of the companies in America and Canada that create CNG kits for fleets primarily. A change in the certification process will broaden the market and introduce competition into a market that has been shielded by EPA certification regulations.

BAF Technologies 2415 Beatrice Street, Dallas, TX 75208
Baytech Corporation PO Box 1148, Los Altos, CA 94022
Campbell-Parnell USA 1720 Deer Valley Rd #101, Phoenix, AZ 85024-5603
Cummins Westport Inc. 1750 West 75th Ave., #101, Vancouver,
ECO Fuel Systems Inc. #2-20043 92A Ave, Langley, BC V1M
Emission Solutions Inc. 2001 Central Circle, Ste 106, McKinney TX 75069 FuelTek Conversion Corp 5660 E. 58th Avenue, Unit B, Commerce City, CO 80022 IMPCO Technologies 3030 South Susan Street, Santa Ana, CA 92704
Impco Technologies

This is my humble opinion. When markets are broadened, the price of the individual unit drops due to stimulated competition (something established organizations will fight).; ▶ Reply to This