Real CNG Cars

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Permalink Reply by jarles alberg on October 25, 2008 at 1:15pm

We are rapidly entering the phase of our economy where jobs are going to get more scarce and as a consumer, we can't just keep throwing things away because it is easier to buy new. Buying a Honda takes money out of the American economy.
Why not take that $25,000 and get with some other folks and start an affordable conversion center that would benefit our economy and put Americans to work. Also, the poorest folks and slightly less poor are going to be saddled with the older gas guzzlers which will still be using foreign oil. Why not help them convert the older cars and save on greenhouse emissions as well as save on green dollars. And how about the big SUV's that are practically worthless in todays market. Change them over and their value might improve.
I for one believe we can make a difference very quickly if we can get organized and create a system like McDonalds that uses a standard blueprint for everything it does and using local people for it's work force, and funded for the most part by local folks.

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Permalink Reply by gordon wolf on October 27, 2008 at 12:01pm

Conversion kits are not a hobby like project for amateurs. There are very tough Federal and State standards that are hard to satisfy with the tools and skills of ordinary people. Most -perhaps 80%+ conversions done by do it yourselfers or neighborhood shops will never pass state or federal emissions test. Conversions are being done everyday at authorized shops with all the right equipment and most important, highly skilled professionals. 100% of their work meets regulatory requirements. But given the high cost of conversion at a pro shop, the resulting vehicle - now void of all manufacturer warranties- is worth less than the vehicle was before. This makes little economic sense so few people -other than die hard hobbyists- will ever do conversions of light vehicles.

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Permalink Reply by Victor Porter on November 4, 2008 at 9:48am

Gordon youre right conversion kits are tough and not generally a DIY project but thats part of the problem.
if you want to see a major change in how many cars are fueled by foriegn oil you have to come up with an affordable solution. that doesnt mean everyone should just go buy new. like I said earlier in this thread that is an elitest philosophy the fact is that there are less new cars being sold with our unstable economy. there are still people out there driving that 72 pinto or that 89 shadow because they CANT afford to buy new.
in order to make a real difference you need to reach the entire market. low price conversions are the best solution. kind of like the coupon that the government is now offering for the digital converter boxes for your TV. if there are enough people who cant buy a new TV to make this offering worthwhile dont you think there are enough people who cant buy a new car? and with the current economy financing is getting harder to get even for those who can afford a new car.
Besides doesnt buying a foriegn car defeat at least part of the purpose of using domestic fuels?
as I have stated before we do need to put pressure on auto makers to make more cars that run on alternative fuels , once the alt. fuel cars become the norm, current engine families will be more affordable to convert because the parts will be out there for the new cars the prices will come down even further when aftermarket parts suppliers begin to carry the parts and most mechanics will wind up being certified simply out of attrition, as the industry changes so must the mechanics or they get left behind. thats just the way of the world.

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Permalink Reply by gordon wolf on November 4, 2008 at 11:21am

Problems with converting old vehicles on the road already are 1) you will void the manufacturers warranties 2) the conversion process is expensive for a used car in relation to its value 3) after conversion of a used car the next buyer has recourse to no one for a failure of the CNG system 4) states are not set up to change their respective emission control-tasting laws for conversions (except fleets) 5) there is the potential of severe damage or injury from low quality conversions-
Honda makes its nifty CNG Civic in the USA. They promise to make more of them in the USA if the government will create incentives to build more fueling stations. There are almost none open to the public in the USA today. That is the real problem. Car prices and financing terms for people with reasonable credit are very good right now. Unfortunately, as with hybrids and plug in electrics, the solution to lowering usage of gasoline based on imported crude is very expensive per vehicle. A pure electric plug in high performance 2 cents per mile car is $105,000. But they are selling. As are $450,000 Ferraris. The Chevy Volt may cost at retail $30,000+. A massive ramp up in CNG Civic sales would lead to production cost declines. That would be good. No easy answers. Hondas are not the only answer. All NYC buses and garbage trucks should be on CNG in 2 years. All heavy trucks in the ports of Los Angeles are converted to CNG, There is an initiative in Port Newark, NJ to convert all vehicles operating in the port to be converted to CNG. The fleet list goes on.
There is another avenue which is to convert NG blended with other hydrocarbons to a synthetic gasoline which requires a major capital improvement undertaking by US refineries which are strapped right now. This process can possibly supply all gasoline needs for decades.

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Permalink Reply by Victor Porter on November 5, 2008 at 9:38am

you've ignored most of what I said. if more new cars with current engine families are manufactured as CNG cars conversions will be cheaper...current engine families include small block fords IE Windsor family and small block Chevy's which takes us back quite a way...like the 60's , my 96 Buick has a fairly current V6 should I worry about voiding its warranty? how bout my 66 fury or my 75 maverick? I could probably buy a new car but not everyone can... like I said if people cant afford a new TV or cable/Satellite to make sure your TV works with the digital signal what makes you think that a new car is doable ?

I agree with you that conversion of an existing vehicle is expensive and as a truck and equipment mechanic who has worked with both propane and CNG equipment I know that it is not a DIY weekend project for most people but the PRICE is part of the PROBLEM. You cant just expect the entire country to go out and buy a new car.and yes as I stated before getting the auto manufacturers to make more Alt. fuel vehicles will make conversions more affordable. as far as US refineries being strapped right now I don't see how...over the past year they have raked in record profits.

all I'm saying is the answer isn't simply " Buy New" you have to take into account those who cant or wont. yes I am one of those die hard hobbyists you spoke of, but being that I own some older cars and I see the number of older cars on the road ( I live in a fairly poor rural community) I see a need for affordable conversion kits. The Digital TV coupon was a great idea unfortunately it illustrates where our national priorities are as it was applied to our entertainment rather than our energy independence.

Alt Fuel conversion isn't for everyone... but that is because we aren't doing anything to make it that way. those of us who can afford to buy new and those of us who are new car shopping should buy the Alt Fuel models ( if they suit our individual needs). We have to force manufacturers to make more Alt Fuel models to ensure that they DO fit our needs, this will also inevitably force the price of conversion down.

by joining PP we have all shown an interest in America's energy independence we come here to put our heads together and discuss how to accomplish this goal. but in order to do what we set out to do we must find a way to make it a reality for EVERYONE .
Alt Fuel technologies have been in existence since LONG BEFORE the fuel crisis of the 70s in fact I dare say long before any of us were born. the Diesel engine was originally intended to run on Peanut oil. Jules Verne Wrote about HHO from water which is more of a supplemental fuel at this time ( you can reduce fuel consumption but not replace it). they used Ethyl in the 50s which is nearly a direct replacement for gasoline for some reason however Congress has decided 9 because we all know they are Scientists and engineers) that Corn is the only viable crop for making Ethanol. Brazil runs off of Ethanol made from the discarded garbage from sugar cane...

let me close by saying our strength is in our numbers but those numbers would be greater if we were to make converting more affordable. we have to reach out to the working poor to make it so they too can be a part of this Energy Revolution.

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Permalink Reply by Dave on November 5, 2008 at 4:49am

Hi Victor,

I'm glad to see your comments on this! I believe you are right on the money. At http://push.pickensplan.com/group/cngconversionkitsandtheirvehicles... we started a group effort at creating a letter to push our legislators on these very issues. I've let this letter go by the wayside as of late due to other Pickens Plan pushes. However, now that we have a president elect (good, bad, right, or wrong) it's time we inundate him with what we want - a demand for Affordable, Accessible, and Reliable CNG conversion kits for ALL our current vehicles! Folks like you and Gilbert Dalit will be critical to making this letter accurate and compelling for us all to use in telling the president elect and all our other legislators what we want.

Dave

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Permalink Reply by Gilbert B. Dalit, PE on November 1, 2008 at 2:56pm

Hey Jarles .. I agree with you. How do you expect to convince Gordon who Honda salesman to support your idea? He is out to seel you Honda's. Buying Hondas is not the answer to our crisis and it does not fit in the Pickens Plan. The Pickens Plan is to figure out how implement natural gas towards making America become energy independent.

I suggest that you look into my group "CNG Working Group" to systematically figure out how we can make CNG and other natural gas initiatives a reality. We are trying to address a crisis with long term solution. I don't see how buying or selling a Honda at this time will help towards this end.

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Permalink Reply by Dave on November 5, 2008 at 4:56am

Hi Gilbert,
Can you provide a link to your group "CNG Working Group?"
Dave

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Permalink Reply by Gilbert B. Dalit, PE on November 1, 2008 at 3:08pm

This 'Buy Honda' bit is off the mark with the Pickens Plan. It is not a long term solution to our energy crisis. It is not even an approach how to get there. Boone Pickens is proposing a two prong technology approach to our energy criss: One is to take advantange of the enormous, vast amount of natural gas reserves we have at home (enough to last 100 years) and second - to take advantage of the wind resources in the midwestern corridor of the United States.

Choosing between tthe two in terms of priority .. I think we should start with the natural gas option. Developing an afforadable and certified conversion kit is the key to. NO ONE EVER SAID THIS IS GOING TO BE EASY BUT WE ARE LEFT IN A POSITION THAT WE NEED TO COLLECTIVELY DO SOMETHING NOW.

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Permalink Reply by Ray Seitz on April 15, 2009 at 4:34am

It looks like the Honda has taken 2 steps back with the new developments of its forced bankruptcy of the manufacturers of Phil. Without Phil there are many areas of the US where one will not be able to refuel!

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/04/10/456591.html
Honda Scrambles to Mitigate Fuelmaker Outrage - EXCLUSIVE

BTW Gill This is CNG use is not at all "off the mark with the Pickens Plan" We need to stop oil imports Natural Gas is the easiest and quickest way to stop importing oil, while development into other forms of energy can progress.

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