CNG conversion issues in Oklahoma

Hello everyone,
I have just joined the Pickens Plan and the Cowboys for Pickens Plan forum.

I would like to start a discussion concerning the problems associated with trying to convert a vehicle to CNG in Oklahoma. I have been doing some research all this week on this issue. To my amazement I find little to no involvement in the state for CNG outside of corporate FLEET operations.

On top of this there are some state regulations on conversions that, in essence, make it illegal to work on an alternative fuel vehicle unless one has an "Alternative Fuel Technician Certification". So, my next question was: how does one get certified and what is required? To this date I have been unable to find the answer. I contacted OSU-Okmulgee to ask them if they are aware of the certification requirements. No one was able to give me any information concerning this as they were not aware of it at all.

I have requested information from Francis-Tuttle VoTech but have not received any to date.

So, does anyone on here know anything about this certification requirement? What does it take to get a certification? How does one go about getting anything accomplished if one wants to convert a vehicle without anyone in the state who can do the conversions?

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Permalink Reply by Craig Hammons on July 17, 2008 at 10:51am: Steve,

It sounds like you are two steps ahead of everyone. Unfortunately, I can hardly remember a time when our state was a trend setter or blazed a path for any new laws or technology. Given that our state is one of the country's top producers of natural gas, our lawmakers would be doing the state a big service by getting moving on these issues. There are loads of opportunities here, but it's hard for the first steps to be taken until certain laws are in place. Good luck in your efforts.

Craig; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Chris Barrows on July 17, 2008 at 11:10am: I feel your pain!

Not is there only a state law, but a Federal law also that requires EPA emissions and certification testing for all vehicular CNG conversions.

Unfortunately the EPA testing ends up being a long and expensive process, which I personally think was a planned effort by certain lobbyist.

These laws have stifled the R&D on the idea.

Until we can get these laws changed we'll be up the creek without a paddle--or a CNG vehicle!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Steve Ingraham on July 17, 2008 at 12:09pm: Yes, I am finding that as much as the government bodies, whether state or federal, wish to jump onto any alternative fuel bandwagon the real truth is they are just giving lip service to the efforts. Take these tax credits. They are indeed tax credits for good reason. The state is out no money until after the tax credit is posted on income tax returns. Because of this very little money moves out of the government collections. On top of that, because it is so difficult to get the conversions done an agonizing few individuals will ever even really apply for the credits.

So, the politicians can tout their "look what we are doing for the environment" rhetoric while all the time knowing full well that because of the near-impossibility of the average citizen to do anything about the conversion they will not have to pay out very much at all.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Steve Ingraham on July 18, 2008 at 7:08am: I have examined propane also. Propane conversions are only cheaper in a relative aspect. The certified CNG conversions I have researched are ranging from 6K to 13K while the propane conversions are 5K to 9K. Neither would I consider "cheap" considering what components are needed for the conversion.

These conversion parts are not expensive exotic parts. What is making them expensive is that the companies who do the conversions want to make as much money as they can off of every conversion. Since they do not do many conversions they have to charge a premium price to meet their profit margins.

It is a catch 22 situation. They have to charge enough to make a profit but doing so limits the numbers they sell. If they lower their price they sell more but lower their profit. This is the going wisdom of selling unique products.

However, I think there is a better way. If the product is sold at an extremely nominal cost to the consumer they sell more products, these sold products create more demand which leads to more sales. Of course this means the company has to work harder in the beginning as more consumer demand will create more work for them. However, in the long run the business will grow much faster and profits will begin to rise as business becomes robust in a much shorter time frame.

This is not a novel concept but it is hard for a business to wrap their arms around because it means they have to float the start up of the company in the beginning to cover costs while they build the business up. This takes capital that most new businesses do not have. However, one only has to look at the software industry to see that it can work as a business plan.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by John Rhoads on July 18, 2008 at 11:50am: The sad fact is that we farm boys did conversions from gasoline to propane on our 1955 Chevy pickups long before it became fashionable. Must have done it right - I'm still here. Bureaucratic inertia (certifications/emissions, ad nauseum) is the thing that kills so many great efforts. A nation of sheep has let this happen. We are much more capable than the bureaucrats think we are. I'm ready for a Mao-styled "Cultural Revolution"! Go Boone, go!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Mike Thomas on September 9, 2008 at 8:08pm: John is right! We have become a nation of sheep that are herded to slaughter and told what to buy and what to think. We have to work together within the framework of the law but we could test the limits. What about experimental vehicles, do they have to meet these rigorous emissions standards?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Steve Ingraham on July 21, 2008 at 8:03am: Tim,
I am not sure where you are getting your quoted prices for propane conversions. If they are legitimate I would be very interested in converting to propane as well. In the past I have looked into converting my 2000 GMC 1/2 ton P/U to propane. It has a fuel injected 350 engine. No one I contacted would think about installing a kit for less than around $6K. I could never recoup that cost so no matter what fuel prices do there is no economic incentive for me at all.

This lies at the crux of all alternative energy changes and, for that matter, any alternative lifestyle changes. Regardless of my, your, or anyone else's environmental ideals, if it is too expensive to make some environmental change the change will not happen. True reform comes from a different way of doing things that does not cause undue hardship for the person making the change. This may be a disappointing way of thinking about these types of issues but it is the truth.

The truth is, whether it is CNG or LPG, the problem with converting existing vehicles is the fact that the conversion costs are so high the vast majority of vehicle owners cannot afford to make the conversion. The fleet owners who drive a great many more miles per year than the average typical American are the only people who can justify the high initial outlay of costs to convert.

The components necessary to convert a vehicle are not made from expensive materials nor are they overly complicated to install. The high price is strictly due to the limited capability for the shop down the road to install conversions without going through a great deal of bureaucratic red tape. If a local machine shop could manufacture parts for these conversions without dealing with the draconian EPA (or any other governmental agency) certifications these kits could be dirt cheap to purchase and install.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by David Smith on July 19, 2008 at 6:31am

Pickens Army,

There may be relief in sight. We need to track this legislation and make sure the American people are protected as it moves through congress. This could open up the conversion market if we hold our representatives and senators feet to the fire.

Here is a piece of legislation that proposes to deal with the natural gas regulations on the federal level.

Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma Introduces Drive America on Natural Gas Act and we need to show our support. This is a first step on the road to energy independence.

Below is the contact page.
http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Contac...

Here is Senator James M. Inhofes website

http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.Pres...

The regulations of certification are addressed in a way to open up the market. Finally!!!!!!!!!

David Baker contributed this section.

We have to drown out the foreign oil Lobbyists in Washington. Collectively We have to become the VOICE for changing our reliance on foreign oil, by Vocalizing our Support for the wide scale use of Alternative Energy Producing Systems.

The ACTION we can take Today is to influence our LEGISLATURE. We must change the thinking in Washington. This is accomplished by CONTACTING your Senator, Representative, Governors.

The following links to Websites are one way of Contacting Congress. I find these links to be the quickest at getting to the "contact web form" used by most of Washington.

SENATORS:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
and look for the link to their web form

Representatives:
https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml

To Contact Your Governor:
http://www.nga.org (national Gov. list)

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi
http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell
http://mcconnell.senate.gov/contact_form.cfm

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

Attachments:

The Drive America on Natural Gas Act of 2008 .pdf, 40 KB

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Permalink Reply by Randy Bacon on July 19, 2008 at 11:30am: If I could find a relatively inexpesnive conversion option I would actually look at purchasing a a newer SUV or pickup for conversion. Most dealers in our area are substantially discounting these vehicles and can't give them away.
Thats a great idea about contacting the Vo-tech system,; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by David Smith on July 19, 2008 at 12:01pm: Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma’s Drive America on Natural Gas Act will revitalize the Vo-Tech system and train new technicians for the conversion field. This will mean millions of jobs across the country.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Steve Ingraham on July 21, 2008 at 7:24am: David,
Thanks for the information. The technology, fuel source, capabilities have nothing to do with the limited availability of alternative fuels. It is plain and simply the bureaucracy of our government that has shut the door on innovative new solutions to the existing status quo. The businesses who make money off of every American who has to pay for gas, oil, electricity, etc. are using a great amount of that money we paid them to lobby our government leaders to enact laws and regulations to keep their existing pipe line of income intact.

In my opinion, the change that we need does not necessarily have to do with using new forms of alternative fuel. No, we need to change the way we as a member of the "represented" masses allow our elected officials to think about themselves and the powerful lobby groups desires over those of the general population. It seems to me politicians have NO IDEALS anymore. That old Jimmy Stewart movie "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" is nothing but a campy old B&W movie to most people anymore but it truly does show that we really do need elected officials with morals and convictions.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Dana Sewell on July 25, 2008 at 4:28pm: My dad owns a business called Tulsa Gas Technologies. TGT is the largest manufactureur of CNG fuel dispensers in North American. His phone never stops ringing from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. with people wanting there cars converted to natural gas. The EPA only allows certain cars to be converted and they have to be newer cars. Conversions cost $13,000. Now before you start thinking how that is so expensive...do the math. Let say you drive $20,000 (yes that may be over the avg. amount people drive...but it is mainly worth it for people that drive A LOT) and pretend your car gets 15 mpg. That is 1333.33 gallons per year, gas at $3.75/gallon...therefore, you spend about $5000 on gas a year. Now 1333.33 gallons at 90 cents a gallon (The cost of Natural Gas), you would spend $1200 a year on NG. That is a savings of $3800 a year. Not even considering the tax credits, your savings will pay off in less than 3.5 years. Now with the state and federal tax credits...you are really saving money.

My dad has been talking to Inhofe about making conversion easier for people to do. It is your job to contact your representatives and senators and let them know what you want done in your area.

Go to www.tulsagastech.com to find out more about CNG.; ▶ Reply to This