Energy as Currency

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Permalink Reply by BurgessKJ on December 21, 2008 at 11:02pm

Get them to at least work with commercial property Developers & Lessors who embrace alternative energy.

Property values are based upon 5, 10, and 30 year mortgages. Amortization is the best way to lessen the impact of high up-front energy development costs.
Maybe convince small & large companies to invest in longer leases, so that the initial cost of something like geothermal, solar thermal, wind turbine, or PV is spread out.

We can all do the simple math that power costs X amount per KWH per-year, over the life of a property, and that installation of new power collectors costs Z amount, over a payback period equal to 5 to 10 years. Divide Z by X, then amortize the cost over the following 15 -20 YEARS, which is how long most current local power generation will last (before requiring overhaul or replacement).

Tell the Board 'sure, that will cost you for 5 to 10 years, but it will be FREE FOR THE REMAINDER OF EQUIPMENT DURATION.

Now most companies make projections accross mere months, fiscal Quarters of EACH year. They should instead work with developers, land owners, and leasing management, whose product-life is measured IN DECADES.

Then initial cost impact will be absorbed over the lifetime of the property mortgage.

If a corporate board can support 'investment' of the up-front costs, then they should be able to reap a proportional segment of the back-sale of energy to commercial suppliers.

Federal, State, City, and County governments should also make this sort of 'investment' in local power generation, as it will greatly reduce the cost of constantly building, expanding & rebuilding commercial power plants. That is because homeowners, developers, and commercial property managment companies will be providing huge quantities of power during peak periods (daylight).

There is actually a movement based upon this last idea, a city-bond scheme called the 'Berkeley' solution. Look for it in current news reports. I believe it is in part why President elect Obama chose Dr. Chu of Berkeley Labs for Secretary of Energy.

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Permalink Reply by Mary Nelson on May 17, 2009 at 1:56pm

"Energy as the only real currency" must be an idea whose time has come. My reasoning..... this blog includes people who appear well-informed about energy issues and are relatively sophisticated in the realm of blogs. It appears to me that "money as currency" is mentioned over and over, and not just here, but is never really the focuss of the discussion. It seems to go all around it but never looks at it directly. Is it somewhat like the Natives who can't see the big ship, but finally can see the men in little boats sliding into their shores?

I venture that it is really difficult to address this without getting caught by our current paradigm which says money is primary, whereas it is really energy, as matter or motion, that is primary. Surely a wonderful discussion could spring forth (energetically)

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Permalink Reply by Fred Mars on May 18, 2009 at 9:30am

Ms. Nelson and all,
To change a paradigm we must all get past the idea that currency is a necessity at all. My feelings about basic needs, food, water, health care, shelter, energy, is that we need not pay to live, we need not have to afford to eat. But the great minds of our leaders listen to those that have a stake in the status quo which they use to pierce the hearts of all of our earnings and savings.

HR 1207 is a small step in repealing the Federal Reserve Act and charging Congress with their Constitutional duty to coin currency. That currency needs to be backed by real assets, gold silver, and yes ENERGY! But in an economy where everyone is a consumer only the producers will profit as is the current paradigm.

There are people that either live off-grid or produce enough power to be self sufficient and produce a surplus of energy. Many states have laws that require the utility to purchase that energy while others are attempting to prevent people from producing let alone selling it the the power companies.

Now we have movement toward carbon taxes with CAP and Trade legislation getting pushed through Congress. Can you say "collusion" because that is what it is. It is not a conspiracy theory it a conspiratorial reality. The paradigm will occur when we break through the illusion that we need fuels to produce electric and we all become producers and not just consumers.

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Permalink Reply by Mary Nelson on June 1, 2009 at 1:42pm

That's my point. The "current" energy arriving on Earth from the Sun is our "currency". This may have a time frame of a season, a full turn of seasons, i.e., a year. This has been going on since a hominid stood erect. Then we learned to use precious metals dug up out of the ground and we created, based on that, pieces of paper - and now digits in cyberspace - that we call "currency/money" and now, for the past 150 years have been able to burn a cache of fossil energy has led us down a primrose path (pardon the metaphor) that we turned into money/currency. Now that this activity is becoming too expensive, in terms of itself - energy -- we will find ourselves going back to the Sun's real-time energy as our "currency/money". It will be, in effect, an accounting system not a monetary system. This is not to disagree with what you say. But it might be worth some time to discover why we use "currency" to mean "money". It's almost a Freudian construct. And hense, so misleading and confusing that it's hard for us to even have a dialogue about it. Read exegesis' on this concept at
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/hubecon.htm and
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/quigley/2007/0612.html

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Permalink Reply by Mary Nelson on June 1, 2009 at 1:57pm

Mathematicians can take numbers and exponenciate them forever (as can kids in school as soon as they learn about "doubling") and this can easily be applied to "money", especially now that we have computers. But it cannot be applied to matter and energy, which is primary to any system or theory of "economics". To understand why our intellectual systems of finance and of matter/energy are on a collision course, see http://www.technocracy.org/natureofgrowth.htm.

"the earth will not tolerate more than a few tens of doublings. "

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Little on June 1, 2009 at 3:53pm

Part of what I'm saying is that in the new economy any community that could produce more energy than it consumed could in essence amass wealth over time.

This works on the scale of the individual person, family, community, state or country. As long as you have more cash flowing in than you have flowing out, then you gain wealth.

If a community were to produce more energy than it consumed, then the excess energy would need to be sold to get rid of it. In order to calculate the net amount you would have to take into consideration all of the energy required to import good or services into the community.

I'm not looking to replace paper currency, rather to look at energy as if it were money and use simple economic formulas to determine if a given energy strategy makes sense.

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Permalink Reply by Fred Mars on June 2, 2009 at 7:42am

I though long and hard before replying because it was frustrating to me having written up my personal "Plan to Save America" and the very point of it all is ENERGY INDEPENDENCE. Independent of foreign oil sure, but also independent of big power. You the individual homeowner or a company, installing photovoltaics and wind turbines will generate a surplus of electric on a consistent basis. Some areas are obviously better suited for sun while others will provide a more consistent wind velocity. If these things did not work, T. Boone would be investing in something else.

Cap and trade was tried back when LA and many other major cities had a brown cloud of smog always overhead. It did nothing then to curb GHG and it will do nothing again. It will provide a new market for big rollers to gamble with and do little to help the consumer. If we are going to gain true energy independence then the slave master must be eliminated. And we do that by producing clean energy that does require coal, diesel, natural gas, or nuclear fuel.

Energy then can be used in lieu of taxes in some cases, and city and county government can barter energy for goods and services, Of course if everyone produces surplus, who will want to buy our electric? Car lots for plugging in while you shop or work for one.

Change how you look at energy, and change the energy paradigm.

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Little on June 2, 2009 at 4:29pm

I'm not sure if city dwellers will ever be able to produce more energy than they consume. Cities like LA, Chicago and New York will consume far more energy than they can produce naturally. But there is no reason why small communities, surrounded by large tracks of open land, won't be able to produce far more than they consume.

The new paradigm is that the forces that have been drawing people away from rural communities and into the cities will be reversed with renewable energy resources and the use of the internet. We could see a rebirth of Main Street USA because of renewable energy. Except now, these small rural communities will be in the energy production business. Small communities once again will be able to become self sustaining by becoming energy exporters. The wealth will flow into them instead of out, like it has for years.

At the same time the need for government services should drop precipitously.

True independence is the only true freedom.

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Permalink Reply by Larry M. Aden on June 8, 2009 at 5:27am

You folks need to read my blog post - COMMON SENSE ON ENERGY, NOW!!!, Part 1, and join the group AMASS - http://push.pickensplan.com/group/amass.
What we really need to do is develop every possible hydrodynamic energy resource for base-load energy and seawater distillation to freshwater for needs in coastal cities, cross-stitch every mega-volcano, like Yellowstone, with a grid of underground geothermal heat exchanger pipes by directional drilling to stabilize these highly dangerous natural mega-bombs and harvest this inexhaustible energy supply for our interior base-load energy needs, and redistribute the populace along energy highway development corridors, see my blog post – Convective Current Power Towers Across America.
Above all, we can never achieve anything close to full productivity and energy independence, unless we insure equal access to an integrated cooperative energy transmission infrastructure, see my blog post - 300 Million Opportunities.

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Permalink Reply by Fred Mars on June 8, 2009 at 8:10am

Please take a step back and think about what you are proposing.
First, an energy infrastructure is a centralized controlling grid, which is basically what we have. The problem with any large grid is the power losses in the transmission lines.

Second, I don't want any engineering yahoos messing with volcanoes. Even their little mistakes can have huge negative impact on the planet. And that is based on historical evidence and not just picking on the engineers.

Third, (and this is in response to you too Mr. Little) Solar PV arrays on all those high rise buildings in the metro area and small wind turbines supplementing the solar, can and will produce more energy that what is consumed. According to the trades and the energy "watchdogs" by creating super energy efficiency from the ground up in new buildings and by renovating older ones to meet super energy efficiency standards, an overall average savings of 20 percent is easily achieved.

But as far as your equal access to a cooperative infrastructure, we do have one. It's a centralization nightmare and the government (at the request of big power) wants to upgrade that central grid in pretty much the same manner as you describe. Then they can turn off your power without dispatching a service technician. With the new "smart grid" they are proposing, they can turn off lights, lower the thermostat and all without your consent or knowledge. Well of course you will know when you are sitting in the dark and shivering in the cold. Paranoid? No, I'm pragmatic and see that given the capability to do so, they will.

The best power distribution is the one that serves the local area best. A grid that is decentralized, utilizing the local power production to support the local area. Surplus energy can be distributed via interconnects. Scot Brusaw's Solar Roadway would meet that criteria with redundancy that could not be duplicated by the power utilities at any cost. And the overhead lines will all vanish from the skylines across America.

Regarding your redistributing the populace, I think that is the most ridiculous idea I have heard. You want to MAKE people move where big power/government wants them to move? I don't think so. We are not sheep that can be led around like that although many people will.

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Permalink Reply by Mary Nelson on June 12, 2009 at 10:24am

This is so difficult. To recognize that energy is primary. The Universe is primary. Galaxies, Suns, Planets, Species, Humans are derivative. (no connection to Wall Street). Energy is primary in all. Every unit of energy used by any life form on Earth comes from the energy that flows, or, in the case of fossil "fuel", flowed to us from our Sun.

To look at energy as if it were money is to turn thermodynamics inside out. Our placing "money" first is an exact mirror image of Reality. Why to we cling to it so?

Simple economic formulas is what brought us to this pass. The dismal "science". No science at all. "WonderWorld" as Thomas Berry calls it.

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Permalink Reply by Fred Mars on June 12, 2009 at 11:16am

There are basic necessities for life to exist; breathable air, water, food, shelter, and even health care for those that require medical attention due to disease or injury. All humans need to have clothing to protect against the elements, shelter from the cold and excess heat, to stay dry when it rains. We all must have basic necessities to sustain life.

So why are all of these things commodities? By what natural or man-made laws (no offense to women, just that it's apparent that women did not write the laws that got us here, it is a patriarchal social environment that created it).

Money, in all of the various forms is still an illusion. it is based on a virtual reality that created the need. Commerce and land ownership, as it has developed is not how it MUST be, not even how is "should" be, but the smoke and mirrors of the wealthy that it used to enslave the rest of us.

Placing PV panels and a small wind turbine on buildings in the metropolitan areas would produce abundant electric power for the city. And even if it can only produce half of the required power it will still reduce dependence on fuels significantly. And as far as "smart grid" technology as is defined by the power companies and their lobby of the government, it is for their benefit alone, not the consumer's (us).

Placing carbon trading and taxes will not help at all, it will just create another market for the wealthy to gamble with and further reduce the consumer's buying power. Let's be honest here and see the truth behind all of the spin of global warming and peak oil. Even if it all accurate (which it is not) by continuing to clear cut forests and rain forests for "progress" we will continue to reduce the planets ability to absorb CO2 and produce oxygen. And the carbon in the atmosphere will rise in proportion.

Regular and cyclical solar cycles are evidence of warming and cooling cycles in the planet's geological past as evidenced by scientists show that even with all of the industrialization over the past two hundred years, there is most more significant climate changes that are attributable to natural causes than those claimed to be the fault of humanity's technological progress.

If we are to survive this current economic and energy crises it will be by creating a new energy paradigm and not by aiding and abetting the corporate oil and power interests that created the problem in the first place.

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