Kiss the Earth GREEN

Comment

Comment by Nathan Campbell on December 1, 2008 at 10:46am

"If Poet has cash on hand, they must have figured out how to make ethanol efficiently, right? " - exactly they are more profitable then the industry average. They have said that they are going to send their engineers to new plants to upgrade them to operate at higher efficiencies. That is how a competitive industry works; The strong take over the weak.
I believe that the ethanol industry is probably mature enough to get by without subsidies, but it will grow more slowly without them. The best thing to do would be to gradually phase out the subsidy, and replace it with a fair carbon tax that taxes each fuel based on the carbon content.

"Drink more Made in America Coors beer"
Have you heard that Coors turns their waste beer into fuel ethanol? They produce over 3 million gallons a year from waste.

Comment by david epps on November 30, 2008 at 10:28am

The US exported $98 billion of agricultural products in 2007
While Americans imported $34 billion of wine, beer, and fish products in 2007

Drink more Made in America Even Williams sour mash wiskey
Drink more Made in America Coors beer
Eat more Made in America pond raised cat fish

Schnuks grocery cooking oil 1.4L
generic canola oil - 2.98
generic corn oil - 2.98
House canola oil - 4.19
House corn oil - 4.19
Crisco canola oil - 4.38
Crisco corn oil - 4.38

sav-a-lot other grocery
bread - 0.80
biscuit - 1.29
egg 18ct - 2.39
milk F/free - 2.79
turkey franks - 0.99
lunch meat - 1.39
onions 3# - 1.29
refried beans can - .65
fig bars - 2.29
cranberry juice - 2.29
soups can 0.44
ground turkey 1# - 1.19
pork butt 5# - 8.90
chicken drum sticks 4# - 4.49
flour 5# - 1.89
carrots 2# - 1.19

Comment by david epps on November 30, 2008 at 5:39am

Dan said "this is a direct reflection of using Food Grade crops to make gas" Prove it!!!!!

It is more likely a local shortage of imported Canadian canola oil.
http://www.findownersearch.com/owner/canbra-foods-ltd/2079986/
Call them and find out the facts before fear consumes you.
http://www.canolaharvest.com/contactus.aspx

Dan said "January of this year a 1.42 liter bottle of Canola Harvest cooking oil was $2.73 here in the Seattle area. This morning at the local supermarket it was $7.19. This is in part to the rise in gas for harvesting"

Wrong - Fuel costs effect harvesting, planting, fertilizer, pest control, seed production, crop processing, storage, and product delivery and distribution. And lets not overlook:

A review for the 2008 canola market we find.that in no way is biodiesel demand for canola having any effect on canola oil prices at your Seattle super market. In fact it has been the cost of oil that has increased prices of food in general. While a crop price floor set by the small amount of crop used in biodiesel production has prompted farmers to put more acreage into corn, soybean, and canola seed just at the time that the burgeoning affluent populations of China, India, and Japan need it.

There is an increased demand all over America for 0 trans fats.
http://www.bantransfats.com/eateriesnews.html
http://www.omega-9oils.com/

There is increasing demand for edible oil all over the world.
http://article.wn.com/view/2007/10/31/KI_wins_overseas_canola_contract/
http://www.canola-council.org/seed_exports_historic.aspx
http://www.canola-council.org/currseedexp.aspx
http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/04231910/Imports-may-rise-on-edible-oil.html

And American and Canadian Production is up well above past record levels
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/22-007-x/2008009/hl-fs-eng.htm
http://www.canola-council.org/acreageyields.aspx
http://www.northerncanola.com/

And production is up even in drought stricken Australia
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/03/2408505.htm

But China is subsidizing research in Canada to increase yields.further
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/highlights/2008/0811china_e.html

While the futures market prices for canola, corn, and soy bean are all down
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/RS.html

Get the word out. 11 billion gallon ethanol production has not effected food prices but 7 billion planet population has.
Made in America Ethanol and biodiesel are excellent uses for some of the 2009 - 2012 canola, corn, and soybean crops.
Made in America Corn replaces 10% of the gasoline made from imported oil and 2% of the diesel made from imported oil.
And the HR 2149 which crop year to crop year reduces the blenders $0.51 tax credit for corn derived ethanol while mandating increased use of ethanol to 33 billion gallons and providing a $1.01 blenders tax credit for ethanol derived form cellulosic sources is good agricultural planning and good public policy crop season to season.

Those in the agricultural business look further than the end of a grocery isle to find answers to supply the food and fuel needs of a hungry world.

Comment by dan on November 29, 2008 at 10:01pm

I know we had this debate a very long time ago. But now I need to bring the subject up one more time.
January of this year a 1.42 liter bottle of Canola Harvest cooking oil was $2.73 here in the Seattle area. This morning at the local supermarket it was $7.19. This is in part to the rise in gas for harvesting but more so, this is a direct reflection of using Food Grade crops to make gas. This is exactly why indiscriminate pushing ethanol and bio diesel is wrong.
It is not a GIANT problem for us wealthy Americans. Even the poorest of Americans are extraordinarily wealthy compared to the poor in other countries. They suffer the most from our need to drive cars in our current paradigm. Please get the word out. diesel is NOT a viable option with the current technology.

dan

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 28, 2008 at 6:19pm

I'm not mad about anything. I am concerned that, in our zeal to find energy solutions, we'll be conned into non-solutions, like products that either need or receive subsidies to be feasible.

The bank bailout was not sold as an energy solution. Pointing out a huge mistake does not excuse other mistakes just because they're smaller. It also isn't clear why getting over market turmoil should be a prerequisite to ending subsidies on farmed feed stocks for ethanol.

Arbitrarily raising the price of gasoline just moves the subsidy to the pump. That makes as much sense as putting a tax on all the cars not built by the "Big-3" so they can compete. Maybe we should add a tax to ethanol to help hydrogen compete? Then we can extend that logic to, say, schools too. We'll "tax" students according to their performance to make sure everyone gets a 'C' grade.

And how about professional sports? After every game, just deduct points from the winner to make it a tie game. That'll encourage the losers to practice more!

So, in addition to ADM & Cargill, there are a lot of other companies cashing in... Why are there so many companies making ethanol if it can't complete with other fuels? If Poet has cash on hand, they must have figured out how to make ethanol efficiently, right? So we can get rid of the subsidy? And they're going to buy out others? Good, because if this turkey ever becomes genuinely profitable, the last thing we want is competition. In the bank bailout, we are supposedly going to have the possibility of reaping a return on the "investment". When Poet buys other companies, will the taxpayers be part-owner, as a return on our subsidy investment?

I wish real solutions existed that everyone could participate in for as little as $5,000. In the CNG Vehicle group, I've suggested that the EPA and CARB should revise their certification processes to streamline conversion approvals. Since I bought my car, the incentives have increased substantially, and I'm happy they have.

Comment by Nathan Campbell on November 28, 2008 at 9:58am

"ethanol is subsidized, and the subsidy is designed to enrich a bunch of fat bastards at ADM and Cargill"
Obviously you haven't been following the news. Poet, the privately held farmer owned ethanol company, has over twice the ethanol market share of ADM. They have cash on had and are about to make some acquisitions, giving them likely a 30% market share if they take over VeraSun.
I am all for eliminating subsidies on ethanol, but we should get over this market turmoil first that is having us subsidize banks which costs hundreds of times more than subsidizing ethanol ever did.
Here is a political compromise to do away with the subsidy:
In exchange for eliminating the ethanol subsidy, increase the tax on gasoline immediately by $0.75 or more. That would solve everyone's problem.

I think Hugh is just mad that my USED alternative vehicle cost a total of $5000 yet it still gets better MPGe then his car which is a specifically designed alternative fuel vehicle that he paid almost $30,000 for.

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 26, 2008 at 12:38pm

Wow, the conversation is over? Heir David has spoken! [pauses to click heels together...]

Yes, California has an excise tax. It also has a flat fee for alternative motor fuel use. It's $36 a year. Last year I drove 18,000 miles, so that added a whopping 1/5 of a cent per mile. Or 4.8 cents a gallon assuming only 24MPG -- I get considerably more. Sorry I left that out -- I try to quote a gge price not variable by mileage. I apologize to all my fellow hard working Americans for being such a parasite and paying the (legal) flat rate instead of writing a big check to the state they haven't asked for.

I studied the data on HR 2419. Let's not split hairs -- ethanol is subsidized, and the subsidy is designed to enrich a bunch of fat bastards at ADM and Cargill. If ethanol made sense, by this time it should be able to stand on its own. If the subsidy was intended to provide a safety net for an emerging alternative fuel, it has become a hammock!

I am hopeful that the study called for in HR 2419 will clarify the total cost and impact of ethanol and provide a road map to cellulosic ethanol from genuine agricultural and wood waste (not subsidized crops grown specifically for fuel).

ntr.v. ca·vort·ed, ca·vort·ing, ca·vorts
1. To bound or prance about in a sprightly manner..

I'm glad to know we won't be doing any cavorting. But I'm not judgmental -- please feel free to cavort all you like. That's just not the way I roll.

So, a thin sheet-metal propane tank weighs 31.5 lbs. Ok, it still isn't lighter, especially with the fuel in it. It also looks like a cylinder. Got a lot of cylindrical storage spaces in your car, do you? The tanks we used were much heavier -- it would take a "cop killer" bullet to penetrate one. Fortunately none of the "well dressed youths" who tried had that kind of fire-power. (Yes, their idea of cavorting is just a little different from what you're used to!)

If a propane tank ruptures, the sheet metal typically tears, dousing the passengers in sub-zero liquid propane which can cause severe "freeze burns". A Kevlar and/or carbon fiber CNG tank would just de-pressurize without injuring the passengers. I still think my CNG tank is lighter, safer and more compact.

If propane can be made without petroleum, fine, but there is no mandate on its source, and no way to know the source of the propane you buy. In my area propane costs more than gasoline($2.44/gal), and it has for years. In our trucks it produced about 15% less horsepower (and mileage) which effectively added to its cost. Maybe that has been addressed? Propane tracks with crude oil prices because it competes most directly with crude-oil based fuels.

Propane also costs more than CNG here because, as far as I know, you cannot fill a vehicle's propane tank yourself. I remember routing our trucks to the fueling station during the day, or racing up there to refuel before they closed. I have never seen self-serve motor-fuel propane, possibly because you have to open a vent to release vapor while fueling. I enjoy 24/7 self-serve CNG all over. It's easy and safe.

From a clean-air standpoint, Propane and Natural Gas are pretty close.

I live in a fairly suburban "megalopolis" -- not much farming going on around here! So there are very few propane stations selling it as motor fuel. In other areas there are probably more. Maybe you can self-serve propane motor fuel in other areas/states too?

If propane works for you, in your area and in your vehicle, it's a good idea -- at least it's not subsidized like ethanol.

Comment by david epps on November 26, 2008 at 5:52am

Hugh is wrong
Hugh is evading taxes
Hugh said "When I fuel NG at home"
Hugh does not pay the
Federal excise tax on motor fuels, $0.51 per gallon
California excise tax on motor fuels, $0.63 per gallon
and the state 6% Sales Tax. 1.25% county tax.

This dialog is over,
Hugh existence on this planet is subsidized by hard working Americans and Californians. I will not cavort with people the likes of Hugh who are wrong all the time and live off the dole and who are sanctimonious (hypocritically pious) toward a legal ethanol tax credit designed to reduce the importation of oil.

Comment by david epps on November 26, 2008 at 4:41am

I get my kicks above the waistline sunshine!

Hugh is wrong
If he cared to study the data provided he would find that the comparison was based on a 13 gallon tank, not 55 gallon.

The Honda-GX has an 8 gallon CNG composite (kevlar) tank having a city driving range of 192 miles between fill ups. The gasoline gallon equivalent propane tank weighs 31.5 pounds while Honda-GX tank weighs 30 pounds.

I repeat
Hugh is Wrong,
He did not study H.R. 2419
Reduced the corn ethanol tax credit (Sec. 15331)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2419&tab=summary
Increased the cellulosic ethanol tax credit (Sec. 15321).
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2419&tab=summary
Go to the text of HR 2419 sec 15331 and 15321

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 25, 2008 at 11:39pm

David --
You're starting to foam at the keyboard.

Do you sell propane conversion kits too?

I've got a propane tank sitting in storage -- 55 gal capacity, @ 234lbs.
It takes two people to get it into the bed of a truck. The Kevlar NG tank in my Honda weighs about 30 according to Honda. It's smaller, but with more NG sites, and home fueling it doesn't need to be that large.

Propane isn't piped to commercial fueling sites -- it's trucked, just like gasoline but in pressure tanks. Funny, I see three trucks in your little diagram. Are those Tonka trucks? CNG isn't trucked anywhere for motor fuel.

Since propane isn't a "utility" gas, its price isn't regulated. This is a problem with LNG as well. When I fuel NG at home, the price I pay is regulated by the public utilities commission, which helps to keep the commercial suppliers from getting out of hand.

GovTrack doesn't count what's paid on the corn before it's turned into ethanol. If farmers want to grow fuel, they shouldn't get a food subsidy too. Even if it were 45cents a gallon, that's still 135 times the subsidy on petroleum.
also, "GovTrack.us is not affiliated with the U.S. government or any other group." I'll stick with the official site.

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