Kiss the Earth GREEN

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Comment by Robert Jackman on November 19, 2008 at 8:36pm

Hugh,

I don't know where You are getting Your information, but a process making Cellulosic Ethanol used in Brazil can make Ethanol without Subsidy for well under a dollar a gallon, 50 cents in 2005 dollars. The process can be scaled up to huge industrial levels or scaled for a small farmer. with no loss in profit.

It's all in "Alcohol can be a gas" by Blume
http://tinyurl.com/56rrda

I am for (NG) and bio methane power also.

We are going to need every source of energy we can gather.

It's much later than You think.

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 19, 2008 at 8:15pm

David -
The PHILL is $1,000 here in CA. Yes the car is more, but it's made in Indiana. GM, Ford and Chrysler are no more American than Honda now -- they're all multi-national conglomerates.

The fuel is domestic, so not sure how I'm for exporting our wealth.

Let us all know where these cellulosic ethanol plants are. I can't seem to find them... Oh unless you're talking about the one in Canada.

There are PROPOSED plants, asking for $385million in aid, to make cellulosic ethanol for $2.65/gal. Even the proposed plants aren't anticipated to produce more than 120 million gallons per year by 2012 -- most estimates are lower.

What data are you looking at that indicates we're on the threshold of making billions of gallons of cellosic ethanol? Can you drop some links here?

Everything domestic is good, if it works. And we can't wait another 20 years for it. The other problem with E85 is that the other 15 is still gasoline.

Luis has posted on five conversion kits, but I'm not sure any of them is approved by EPA or CARB (California Air Resources Board). I haven't been to a gas station for two years, so I don't know if they're selling E85 here or not.

Comment by david epps on November 19, 2008 at 5:45pm

Ethanol eliminated imported water and air polluting MTBE.
It cost $400 to convert your vehicle to run on E85 and is both Made in America.
It costs $4000 for a phil station and $4000 cost adder for honda both imported.

Its a thorny problem that you Hugh are part of. Lets just export all our last remaining wealth.

Comment by Cheryl Y on November 19, 2008 at 9:00am

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL OF U!
Army, here is an idea brought up by another member and I for one am inclined to want to participate as much as I can. When Boone had his interview on Meet the Press, and from other sources as the Ft. Worth Business Press link ....it appears that the credit crunch is putting a hold on funding. What say we petition Boone about all of U.S. here supporting his cause to let us in on the action? Say investing in his windfarm and/or other projects and giving us shares of stock in return. To me that would seem to help us all win....Comments?????
from fellow member: Comment by Clynton on November 16, 2008 at 7:25am
"........IMHO, if investment is a concern, then the plan should begin to accept contributions or micro-investment (ex: by going public maybe). A ton of people have asked about contributing $10 here or $50 there. If finding the right products was the concern, then the plan could look among the membership and invest in sensible companies (many of which are struggling to attract investment in this economy)....."

WE WANT TO INVEST IN THE PICKENS PLAN!

Here is a group already formed if you would like in and maybe we can get boone's attention.

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 18, 2008 at 9:33am

First, let's just wipe CORN ethanol. We've already subsidized it to the tune of over 12billion in just three years, or $2.21/gal. It's a hell of a deal for producers, and ok for consumers but a bad deal for taxpayers.

I can't find this 8 billion gallons, or the 25, 30 or 75. I see one cellulose ethanol plant making 55 million gallons a year; opened last May in Canada.

Here's a link to another article on cellulosic ethanol:
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38384

The conversion plants would need to be close to the supply of waste plant matter to avoid transporting it too far. But Agra-waste is generally not close to oil refineries, and the two components need to be blended somewhere. You can't put ethanol through conventional pipelines because it is corrosive, so new pipelines would be needed, or it would be trucked or moved on train cars.

It's a thorny problem with a long and expensive solution. In the mean time, we have a fuel that comes out of the ground ready to use...

Comment by Robert Jackman on November 18, 2008 at 5:30am

I will. I won't be caught without an alternative, especially if the dollar goes flat. In such a situation, what oil tanker would bother to come here if the dollar would not buy anything of value?

I would not call 8 billion gallons a year US Ethanol capacity not making a dent. With another 25 billion gallons of capacity, we would not need to be in the Middle East. Ask Yourself how much less taxes US citizens would be paying if our military was 10% as large as it is now?

Would our dollar be failing? Would we be facing strife and other hardships? Do we stand to loose it all?

For what it costs us to be in Iraq for one month, we could build about 25 to 30 billion gallons of additional capacity. I have written elsewhere on Pickens how we could easily grow what we need to produce up to 75 billion gallons of Ethanol, half out ground transportation needs.

You need to know, China is using a technology to build truck engines borrowed from VW of Brazil that yields MPG 22% better than a diesel engine, for Thermal Efficiency around 43%

The best engines running on pump gas are about 20% Thermal Efficient.

Both Ford and GM have the ability to produce these engines and didn't bother. Now, both are on their knees. While these Giants may deserve to die, I don't relish the fact that Our nation is loosing an industry that we started and which millions depend on.

You might want to go to Your library and check out "Alcohol Can Be A Gas" by Blume

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 18, 2008 at 12:16am

All the sources I've found are more pessimistic on Ethanol. The stuff is so heavily subsidized and protected, it's hard to tell what it costs to make.

Make all you want -- it'll never make a dent! Bio-Diesel either.

Comment by Robert Jackman on November 17, 2008 at 9:06pm

Oh Hugh,,,,

It's so easy to pick on Ethanol, especially if it's Corn Ethanol.

True that corn doesn't return much, but it does return about 70% more energy than it requires, not 25%. Some 20 crops grown in America can out do Corn for ethanol by factors of 2x to 10x making the return much much more.

Since Ethanol is 98% less polluting than pump gasoline, we have a situation where under any circumstance, Ethanol is cleaner for our air we breathe. You won't see ethanol messing up a water table like gasoline or MTBE does either.

Coal dollars are only staying in USA if the company is US held. fortunately, most Ethanol plants are Co-Op owned by farmers today.

Yes there are subsidies for corn, about 51 cents a gallon. Why isn't there any mention of the 3 to 4 dollar a gallon subsidy that Big Oil gets on every gallon of Gasoline sold here? It's why we pay half the price per gallon others pay for gasoline in our world.

Comment by Hugh Hemington on November 17, 2008 at 5:51pm

E85 produces more pollution than gasoline. It keeps energy $ in America, like coal keeps $ in America. Check this link for good info: http://zfacts.com/p/426.html

Ethanol is a sweetheart deal for Archer Daniels Midland Co., but a sour deal for the rest of us. Huge subsidies (and protectionist tariffs against foreign ethanol).

Ethanol encourages growing corn for fuel, using nitrogen-based fertilizers which ARE killing the eco-systems of the Mississippi river, delta and gulf.

Even if it weren't for the high cost due to tariffs, and the pollution, it only returns 25% net gain in energy for what is put into it.

Comment by Nathan Campbell on November 15, 2008 at 11:31am

Support our domestic ethanol producers and purchase E85! I filled up last night for $1.69 per gallon. Buying ethanol keeps fuel dollars in the Unites States, buy AMERICAN!

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