Organizers and Leaders: Start Here

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Comment by Bob Shultis on October 3, 2009 at 11:23am

Thanks Dr. Hans. That's great input! And you are right, the small wind turbines are virtually noiseless. Whether you go with wind or PV depends on where you live- here in the upper Midwest, where it is often windy, less often sunny, wind can be the better alternative. The issue is the up front cost- many people cannot afford $10,000+ without some kind of assistance, regardless of the return.

To Amy's points- generally, the substation transformers for wind projects are very near the project, usually in remote locations. You are right, bird killings are not an issue with the big turbines, as they were with smaller ones. Small turbines are kind of like propellers, rotating very rapidly over a small area. Most of that area is occupied by a blade much of the time. Large turbines sweep a large area, and the percentage of the air space occupied by the blades is relatively small. The RPM at the drive train is generated by conservation of angular momentum- kind of like when a figure skater pulls in their arms, they spin faster. Only the arms in this case are each 150 feet long. Bottom line the blades are little threat to birds.

Noise can be an issue, as there are fans, brakes, and bearings that can all make noise. If properly installed and maintained the noise is not excessive, especially if the turbines are well placed (away from residences).

Best regards,
Bob

Comment by Dr. Hans J. Kugler, PhD on October 3, 2009 at 10:32am

Regarding costs, look at it as the percentage return you get on your money.
4 years ago I installed a 3 kw roof PV system. Thanks to the ideal angle and direction of the roof, the return is a whopping 11%. Try to get this from an investment company - - never!
As per Energy experts like Khosla or Ehrenpreis: "Forget about wind farms and solar plants run by conventional utility companies. In the new energy regime, the people are the utilities and their houses are the power plants.”
Supplement a PV system with one of the smaller, literally noiseless, wind turbines, and you have enough electricity to charge a plug-in hybrid plus some for your neighbor. Connect the houses via an "intelligent grid" (as defined by the prestigious Rocky Mountain Institute, RMI), and you don't need humongous power lines to bring in electricity.
Many of the "questions" about alternative energy production are not real, but seeded by the coal and nuclear industry.
Germany just released data to show that a single act of supporting alternative energy production created in excess of 130,000 jobs.
Still think that Nuclear is the way to go? Listen to RMI scientists testify in Washington.
Government should never construct energy facilities (like nuclear reactors) itself; using the amount of money a nuclear reactor would cost as additional incentives to motivate people to install wind or solar PV, would result in 2 million homes with alternative electricity devices, WITH THESE DEVICES (pv OR WIND) PRODUCING 4 - - four - - TIMES AS MUCH ELECTRICITY ONE NUCLEAR REACTOR WOULD PRODUCE. For details, CLICK HERE.

Comment by amy oconnor on October 3, 2009 at 10:30am

Also IWA appears to be an association of NIMBY's which every project - good or bad must deal with (and in the case of electricity transformers where they have a proven track record of causing cancer etc, I am empathetic) BUT I do not see a correlation with the bird killings or too much noise and wind projects. It would be great if TPP Members come across Positive comments from people who live near turbines and can post them on the Costco Connection site. I have already written to the IWA and suggested they fact check before they post comments/articles.

Comment by Bob Shultis on October 3, 2009 at 10:24am

Hi Amy. You are right- the plan is not scrapped, it is on hold. He already has several hundred turbines in storage awaiting deployment. If nothing else he may deploy them at diverse locations, rather than in one huge farm. Lots of propaganda to discredit Boone and what we are trying to accomplish.

They are correct about the power distribution issue- which is why we need the energy bill, in very robust form.

I believe, in the long run, lots of intelligent people with a vision will carry the day, over some wealthy, greedy people who are only concerned with their own interests.

Best regards,
Bob

Comment by amy oconnor on October 3, 2009 at 10:08am

" Billionaire oilman T. Boone Pickens put his plan to build the world's largest wind farm on hold last year amid the downturn and scrapped the plan altogether in July because of problems in getting power to a distribution system.


I found this comment posted on Windaction.org which is the website of the Anti-wind naysayers on the Costco Connection. I believe that this statement is False according to what Mr Pickens has told us (that it is On Hold - not scrapped) and this should be addressed with The IWA so there are no misleading comments out there - we have enough to deal with, without people perpetrating falsehoods....I havent checked out their background yet but I bet they are linked to nuclear or a huge power conglomerate or something....why else would they be casting these dispersions on wind ? It is Absurd

Comment by Bob Shultis on October 3, 2009 at 8:27am

There is definitely a place for small wind turbines as well as the large multi-megawatt turbines. As my company only produces extremely large turbines I'm not as well versed in the smaller ones. At this point I don't believe the payback on the smaller turbines, strictly in a monetary sense, is very fast. There are other considerations (doing the right thing for the environment, having an independent energy source), but economics is still the main driver. Two things need to happen to rapidly grow this market, first, government or utility subsidies, such as we have for installing more efficient furnaces, for example, second, less expensive products. The second will happen over time, just as it did with hand held calculators and personal computers. The market in wind energy, particularly small turbines, is in its infancy, and as more companies enter the market, and technology improves, costs will come down.

Your point is extremely well-taken. I live in a virtual wind tunnel out in the country in Iowa, and all of the systems in my house are electric. I'm exploring personal wind turbines, but so far have not come up with anything suitable for under about $14,000. That's a significant up-front cost, and the payback would be about 8 years. In areas of the country that are not as windy, or in situations where a home or business is not a dependent on electricity (heating with natural gas for example) the payback would be longer.

There are doubtless many people in this group who are much better informed on small wind turbines than I am, and I would welcome feedback from you!

Best regards,
Bob

Comment by Robert Schultz on October 3, 2009 at 8:03am

Bob,
How much impact could we have with large numbers of small generators? I have seen a few discussions about increasing the small wind sector by putting small windmills on public buildings, homes, etc. and creating a grid with smaller inputs over wider areas. Pushing megawatts from large turbines over long distances doesn't seem to be most efficient transmission of energy, and potential for line outages is greater. What is your opinion as someone working in Wind Energy field?

Comment by Bob Shultis on October 3, 2009 at 5:40am

Cool picture!

The other issue besides the financing issues inhibiting wind power development, is lack of transmission capability. The prime areas for wind generation in the US are offshore, and the Great Plains from Texas through Oklahoma, Kansas, eastern Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, North and South Dakota. Parts of Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Wyoming, and the Appalachians have significant capacity also. California, surprisingly, is almost maxed out when you consider all of the regulations in that state. Their option is to replace their outdated fleet with larger, modern turbines. Most of these areas are remote, and far from the population centers that need the power.

That's why it is critical that we pass an energy bill with a strong national renewable energy standard- minimum 20% by 2020. Part of that package has to be funding to develop our energy grid, which at present is incapable of delivering the power from the prime wind generation areas to the urban areas that consume the power. This project is simply too large and costly to expect the private sector to execute- it requires strong government leadership.

Which is precisely what Europe has had, China now apparently has, and the United States lacks. Denmark is already at or above 20% wind generated electricity, other European countries are well on their way, and China has launched a massive campaign to develop wind power. Meanwhile the US, with far more potential than any European nation due to our geography, only gets 1.3% of our power from wind.

I believe the key is to identify and target those in Congress that would block this legislation, due to the fact that they benefit substantially from the oil and coal lobbies. In certain oil and coal producing states congressional representatives are going to vote their constituency, which is understandable, but they are in the minority.

Best regards,
Bob

Comment by Dr. Hans J. Kugler, PhD on October 2, 2009 at 11:31pm

Bob Shultis:
Thank you; good information and facts that contradict the naysayers. If we could motivate each town to install just one of these windmills, we would be a gigantic step closer to having enough electricity to charge EVs or plug-in hybrids.
Below is a picture of a postal coach, around 1910, all electric.
www.ElToroEXPOSED.com

Comment by Bob Shultis on October 2, 2009 at 9:46pm

Thanks Dave, I just voted, "yes". For one thing, I work in the wind industry and have seen first hand the potential for job creation, and the impact of loss of financing this year (partially due to the credit market collapse, partly due to our government not extending the production tax credit until late last year), on good paying jobs. Of course, the production tax credit does little good if the companies investing aren't making money. Fortunately, it looks as though the present administration, working with Congress, is coming up with some more creative solutions.

As to the negative comment on Costco by someone who's name I didn't bother to record, the same old stuff about killing birds and not generating enough energy to be worthwhile, he obviously is uninformed. Anyone who has been near a large wind turbine in operation (ours are 2.5MW with a blade length of approximately 150 feet) knows that the blades rotate at a speed such that any bird can easily elude them. One of our site managers said, and I quote "We have had more birds killed by flying into the windows of our building than have been killed by turbines". In other words, these "gentle giant" turbines do not harm birds in any quantity.

Second rebuttal point, that wind turbines don't significantly reduce consumption of oil and other fossil fuels. One of our existing turbines, over it's projected 20-30 year life, will produce the energy equivalent of 250,000 barrels of oil. Larger wind turbines are on the way, which will have even greater impact.

Thanks for the push- we need to rebut this propaganda which is so prevalent.

Best regards,
Bob

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