ARE HYBRID/ELECTRICAL CARS THE SOLUTION?

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Permalink Reply by bob bray on August 30, 2008 at 5:18pm

Yes the math is saying it is not cost effective ,can you get a tax offset for the hybrid?does it make the cost a little closer? also roughly 200 gal less of gas being burned times 10,000 is a lot of gas not polutiong our air,and I would think maybe some of the trade-in would be the super huge SUV lets see the math if i was to trade in a SUV that gets 12 mpg for a hybrid how much fuel would be saved.
lastly where is this 10,000 hybred number from i think close to that many priuses on the road now soon the volt and whatever ford comes up with . once they they thought airplanes were just for silly barnstorming . now they tell us we can not do with out them

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Permalink Reply by Tamas on August 31, 2008 at 8:21am

Hello Bob, visit www.extra-mpg.com to see if this help.

Tamas

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jarosak on September 16, 2008 at 3:00pm

Every thing is good including the device at extra-mpg. Now that cost is up Americans are stepping to the plate as usual with other things. Look up http://www.ucsofa.com/ . This is real technology and ford is in contract to use it. There are other devices such as HHO or browns gas that really do work. Look up water-4-gas. This is the 101 of doing this and it saves money and is not a hoax.

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Permalink Reply by Tamas on September 19, 2008 at 2:49pm

hello, Mr. Pickens started this beautiful campaign to promote wind cng and solar energy in order to stop foreign oil dependency in 10 years.

BUT WHAT CAN WE DO IN THE MEAN TIME? AND HOW ABOUT IF THE PLAN FAILS?

I can guarantee that we can all start to produce energy by saving it RIGHT NOW!!!

IT'S CHEAPEST TO SAVE FUEL THAN TO BUY FUEL AND SAVING ENERGY IS CHEAPEST THAN PRODUCING IT.

We are an army of 160,000 members which can become 160,000 source of energy saving.

I personally save 50% fuel driving my car with moment-o-meter. You can do to. it's secure, easy and fun.

Get the information at www.extra-mpg.com. Some says the price is high but it cost you not to have it as it pays for itself in a few months. A solar or wind system would take years.

Tamas, co-inventor
www.extra-mpg.com

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jarosak on September 16, 2008 at 3:20pm

I say get the Prius if you can and drive it efficiently. Do both or anything you can. I would rather give my money to hard workers in an assembly plant than oil barrens. There are going to be successions of changes. We are all here to help bridge them. The unaffordable car above will be the norm in cost of the corolla in 10 years. Everyone has to get into the mind frame of going as efficient as possible on there next car buy. The SUV should be the thing of the past. It's a Yugo. As for the above calculations, the more efficient car will still have value after 6 years and the corolla won't be close. The depreciation on the prius is much less however you will have more interest so it could be a wash but with less gas burned. Dropping what you have to do it now doesn't make sense as someone is going to use it and its gas. Run it till it's dead. An all real electric car is not far away and the domestic renewable energy supply will power them. Start changing the thought process now, be efficiant, be concious of waste and stop it and make plans on how everyone can save in the future

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Permalink Reply by Tamas on September 16, 2008 at 4:05pm

The U.S. Energy Information Administration reports that the U.S. uses close to 150 billion gallons of gasoline annually. If every American practiced efficient-driving and got the EPA-estimated 15-percent benefit in fuel economy, more than 22 billion gallons of gas would be saved.

In conclusion, efficient-driving the first thing we must practice whatever car we are driving.

Tamas

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Permalink Reply by Gary Munson on September 16, 2008 at 5:48pm

Everyone please do your homework regarding all the schemes to 'save electricity/gas/whatever. Every trick in the book is being drug out from under every rock to separate you from your money. As a start, read the following about MLM schemes...it's the best written piece I've ever seen debunking that pile of garbage....

http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

Don't fall prey to the 'free electricity generators' the 'over-unity device' crowd continues to push. The only thing that works with those devices is their ability to separate the naive from their money. There are a lot of fellow engineers in this group who won't be tricked by these hucksters but for the 'new-to-saving-electricity' crowd, I suggest you keep a tight grip on your wallet and keep abreast of the discussions on this and other forums...




Currently the U.S. is sending an exorbitant portion of it's energy money overseas. Anyone who does not take some initiative to cut their power bill (and therefore energy usage) needs to realize that they are providing 'aide and comfort' to those who would love to see us dead and are taking great delight in our current difficulty. Drilling for more domestic oil is not the panacea for this mess as prices are not being controlled by the mechanism of supply and demand, rather by a combination of speculators and OPEC who control such a large portion of the world's oil supply that they can easily negate any of our drilling efforts by simply closing the tap at their end just a little. Any oil we produce won't save us any money. We currently produce a large amount of oil in Alaska but do you see us getting a break on it because it's domestic? No, we pay the going world rate, set by the aforementioned OPEC and speculators...and provide another windfall for the oil companies. They sit before Congress smiling saying their huge profits are necessary to allow them to explore....excuse me....we are talking about NET PROFITS here...what's left AFTER exploration expenses. We the people have no control over this sort of manipulation of our government, whether we have Republicans or Democrats in charge. . .there's too much money involved. Our only hope is to cut energy usage, not drill and give them more avenues for profit. We all need to realize the best thing we can all do to help the energy situation and economy is to take individual action. Rather than waiting around for the government to do something we can each cut our electric usage dramatically....up to one half of your bill if you are willing to spend a little time and money. Every time you see your power bill shrinking, that's money for you rather than some oil producer. Money you can spend here to help the economy or save as you prefer. Here are several sites worth visiting that aren't selling anything but tell it like it is. Plenty of simple and painless techniques to cut your power bill.

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/

Mr. 'Bluejay' does a great job explaing away a lot of scams...see his section on surge suppressors for example.

http://www.builditsolar.com/index.htm

Be sure to look at the 'Half' program.


The current situation has people grasping at all sorts of non-cost effective solutions that sound great on paper but don't hold up to scrutiny in the real world. Solar electricity is one of those as would be wind power in cent. Florida. Solar PV (photo voltaic) just costs too much at the present. Hopefully ongoing research will change that in the future but it's not ready for prime time yet. The rental program below will probably be practical if it gets underway.

Check out this site for info on a possible contender for solar PV at home.

http://renu.citizenre.com/index.php?c=1218495642


The 'Build it Solar' site also has some good info about costs.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/pv.htm


Plenty of outright scams getting too much press also. The 'run your car on water' crowd is one I can think of (apparently many people didn't pay attention in high school physics). A good site explaining the physics that negates that scheme is here along with other interesting info about some of those behind the current revival.

http://www.alternative-energy-resources.net/browns-gas-the-reality....

Another scam that's been revived is the 'phase controller' that supposedly saves electricity by making motors run more efficiently. Home show demonstrations with an electric motor show it's electricity usage dropping dramatically when the motor is plugged into the device rather than straight into the incoming power. These devices actually do work in the applications they are designed for...this has the unfortunate effect of helping the scammers (or to give them the benefit of the doubt, uneducated-in-electricity folk) sell these things. An industrial application that produces savings would be a big table saw in a woodworking shop that runs constantly. When it's not cutting wood, the motor is under no load and at that moment, a phase controller will save energy. The goal of electrical engineers is to make sure anything with a motor runs that motor at rated capacity at all times...that's the point a motor is most efficient. Their striving for this is what has made ACs and refrigerators much more efficient lately. The point here is motors in your home all run at rated load all the time. There is no 'off load' time like with the big table saw. A 'phase controller' saves nothing in this situation.

In hot climates a proven strategy that works well is a heat recovery unit attached to your AC unit. It provides free hot water and also increases the efficiency of the AC a couple of SEER points by reducing head pressure (and electricity draw) on the compresser. You're paying for your A/C to move a great deal of heat out of your house, you might as well use that heat to provide you with hot water. Adding one of these to an older AC unit that still runs well is a good way to cut $30-$50 off your monthly power bill during AC season (which here in cent Fl can be about 9 months). The neatest thing about this solution is that it's cost-negative. In addition to being free hot water as opposed to other 'high efficiency' heaters that still consome energy, it actually lowers your cost of air conditioning. Here is a manufacturer's site for two of these and a power company document about it as well. The second mfg site has a neat calculator for your savings...but my experience shows it to be somewhat under-optomistic. I don't think it's taking into account how a hru will improve your AC's efficiency. There are claims that they don't work with higher efficiency unit, but I have two HRU connected to 13 SEER heat pumps that provide plenty of hot water.

http://www.trevormartin.com/about.asp

http://www.turbotecproducts.com/EPhome.html

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/11/10104.pdf

Another real saver in hot areas is a radiant barrier in the attic or metal roof. Both create similar savings. If you are re-roofing, consider changing to a metal roof. When installed over a normal wood-decked roof, noise is not a problem. Most people thinking of a noisy metal roof have heard one that's been installed over wood 'stringers' as was the case many years ago...very noisy in a rainstorm. If you have a hip roof house or a lot of dormers metal may be too costly due to the waste from all the cutting to fit...metal is most cost effective on a two-slope 'shed type' roof. Radiant barriers can either be installed during construction..an easy way is using foil-backed plywood roof decking ...or added later. See this site for info and material.

http://www.atticfoil.com/

Tankless water heating is also a problem area for accurate claims of savings. A gas tankless heater can be much more efficient since it eliminates the flue that passes through the center of a conventional tank heater and becomes a chimney to carry away your water's heat once the flame shuts off. Electrics are another story... Big savings are claimed that are not supported by data. No studies are shown that give specifics telling you what make/model/year tank unit is being compared with the advertised tankless. Maybe they use an ancient cast iron tank heater insulated with sawdust? Verifiable details please. Somehow electric tankless heaters dodge the requirement for the yellow government 'EnerGuide' label that every other appliance must have. If they had to carry it, their claims would show to be false. Claims of better durability because of 'no tank' are a red herring also...the 'tank' still exists, only it's now smaller. Buildup from hard water deposits may be more of an issue with tankless, possible surcharges from the power company later due to high instantaneous current draw, heavy wiring needed, new construction with planned tankless can make retrofit of tank type later very difficult due to lack of dedicated hot water piping, incompatability with future solar or other alternative power sources due to aforementioned high current draw. These are all serious disavantages of the tankless electric. All electric hot water heaters are 100% efficient at heating water. That's a function of an electric element immersed in water. The only added efficiency of a tankless is the reduction of standby losses which are very minimal in new technology insulated tank heaters. Put your hand on one and you'll see they pretty much run at room temperature...very little standby loss.


Another myth is that shading a A/C condenser saves '10-20% or more. The reality is not much. Similar situation to a garden hose left out in the sun...you turn on the water and what comes out is scalding hot....but in a few moments the water is cool...sun impinging on something will make it very hot but that is a function of 'accumulated heat'. What heat is striking something and being carried away by a fan is very small. See the following link about this subject...

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/html/FSEC-PF-302-96/index.htm


A free, online calculator that can help you plan upgrades is here:

http://hes.lbl.gov/


Two technologies have the potential to really turn things around..see these two links for something both companies say will arrive sometime next year...Still better to get moving with your own plan that to wait with your fingers crossed..

http://www.eestorbatteries.com/

http://www.nanosolar.com/


Please use due diligence when deciding on ways to save energy. There are LOTS of scams out there. The internet is a great source of info and you can easily see both points of view on any energy saving strategy. Just simple conservation by time-tested means is still the best way to approach our dilemma. If we all cut our power bill in half, we'd all have much more money in our pocket and our nation would be much more secure. This action, along with Mr. Picken's ideas on wind power, WILL free us from imported oil and rather quickly.

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Permalink Reply by Tamas on September 17, 2008 at 7:44am

Hello Gary, your posting is a masterpiece of valuable common sense information. Thank you and I hope everyone will learn them.

You did not emphasize to use the momentum of your car instead of fuel so I take the liberty to add the following:
The U.S. Energy Information Administration reports that the U.S. uses close to 150 billion gallons of gasoline annually. If every American practiced efficient-driving (eco-driving) and got the EPA-estimated 15-percent benefit in fuel economy, more than 22 billion gallons of gas would be saved.

In conclusion, efficient-driving is the first thing we must practice whatever car we are driving. You can learn tips on how to drive efficiently from the US DOE's website (www.fueleconomy.gov) or retrofit your car to a fuel-efficient car for less than $100.00 and discover that driving efficiently is easy and fun with the Moment-o-Meter. See www.extra-mpg.com.

Tamas

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Permalink Reply by David Scott on September 17, 2008 at 3:08pm

Tamas,

First, how do count the cost of pollution in the air and the cost of health to the many people that live in congested, polluted cities?

Second, not all hybrids will be more expensive. I'm amazed that Terry Miller built an air compressor car for about $1500 in 1979 and sold off his plans at $2.00 a pop. As a native of Joplin, Missouri he did apply for and obtain a patent. Now we have many foreign countries picking up where he left off. Both Tata in India and Air Car Factories in France plan for a car in the $18,000 range. True vaporware but out there with running models. They need to tax breaks and funding to make it reality.

Air compressor cars have been built for many years for mining companies by a H.K. Porter (Pittsburg) where electrical sparks would spell disaster underground. By necessity they needed pure air motive power. Locomotives used to be air compressor models for a time in certain parts of the France and even a line in Washington D.C.

The car being proposed by has a pollution footprint of about 1/2 of the Prius.

How about using hydrogen? Why do some people keep coming back to that theme? Pollution free output is a tad better than most. And use of Solar and Wind to create a serviceable hydrogen product which moves from car to car can be a part of the solution. Hydride storage invented by Roger Billings, an American inventor, reduces it by 4 times in space and makes it nearly impossible to explode. All of our cars could be converted for far less than the cost of most hybids.

The Prius is a popular car with over 1 million in sales as off April of 2008. The last number I found on the Web from Toyota claimed 50 mpg in the city. The popularity of the car keeps the price up. We need other options to compete. A good natural gas solution, hydrogen fuel cells, electric cars, air compressed cars, and so forth. 94 percent of Prius owners say they would buy another Prius.

I think hybrids are the way to go and I see them as a hot technology field which will emerge as a winner pick in our future markets much like computers in the early years. They need our investment and, like computer companies, there will be fall out.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Burger on March 29, 2009 at 2:12pm

Three comments and a thought.

One, Hybrid cars are generally accepted to NOT be "the answer," what they are, like the Pickens Plan itself, is a bridge technology. Pure electrics, plug in hybrids, and fuel cell vehicles, if they can be made practical, probably offer a better long term solution.

Two, I would suggest that you compare apples to apples. Although I have not shopped the Prius yet, my understanding is that it is closer to a Camry in internal room than to a Corolla. If I can get a Prius for $24.5, then that compares very favorably to a Camry! The Camry's milage is going to be less as well, increasing the savings rate and reducing the payback time further.

Finally, Most technologies see reductions in cost, because of improvements in the technology, because of increasing efficiencies of scale, and because of improvements in the manufacturing technology. This has been especially true for electronic technologies. Most, if not all current hybrids are mixes of mechanical and elctronic technologies, so I wouldn't expect to see cost reductions like those in electronics, but I would expect the price gap to drop.

Here's a thought, how about a natural gas or flex fuel/electric hybrid?

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