IS SOCIALISM OUR UNAVOIDABLE FATE?

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Permalink Reply by dan on August 2, 2009 at 2:53pm

Richard,
thanks for elaborating. Our constitution is a wonderful document. However, it is just a document that sets up the rules of the game. That is why I say it needs to be rewritten. The founding fathers, my biggest heros btw, did not intend for a situation like ours. They actually put into place every conceivable way to protect us that they had. But by the mere fact that they allowed for amendments showed that they knew it would have to change.
Having said that, I dont believe they could have foreseen a time when the will of the people would be so subjugated by monied interests. But that is where we are now and I do not believe there is any way to change the constitution anymore. I believe that the ERA failure showed that. It was a simple change. One that guarantee everyone having equal rights, as you mentioned above, but it died.

Also, to show how perverted the system has become, I would just point to 2 simple issues. Corporate Personhood and Money equalling Free Speech. the thought that money is the same as someone speaking their mind is absurd. And the thought of a contract being a person is equally absurd. However, the courts, the legislature and the administrations through history have allowed these to occur. Why? Money, or I should say the protection of and access too money.

Sadly, I do not see any group, in our current system being able to fix this.

However, I do not see a constitutional congress occurring either. So my dreams of fixing or rewriting the constitution are simply small little whiffs of smoke on a breezy day. Maybe our children's children will have the will to move the system back into a balance.

However, having said that, the "Constitution" is simply a document of rules that was written in such a way it could be modified. Many other countries are founded on similar documents. There is really nothing that special about ours, other then its' coming along when it did and how resilient it is. Many nations have founding documents, I think we have a special place in our hearts because it is ours.

dan

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Permalink Reply by Richard Barnard on August 2, 2009 at 6:35pm

Thank you dan - resilience is good. I like to think the American People are as resilient. They can be manipulated but when put in a corner and they have time to think they do seem to come to the plate. We have a 200 year history of home runs.

Best regards
Richard Barnard

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Permalink Reply by Monte Smith on August 5, 2009 at 5:37pm

First, I want to thank you all for this discussion and the quantity of provacotive input. I feel like my points of view got snapped up by the taffy puller. That's a good thing.

Now, putting the isms, ocracies and lics aside, there is a condition in regards to a fundamental component that I am becoming increasingly familiar with and it is a condition that troubles me greatly. It troubles me because it just might be an indication that there has been such a severe deterioration in the typical American individual's ability to reason, that "coming to the plate" as Richard put it, may no longer be a saving survival option despite our letting ourselves be manipulated into a corner.

A while back I came to the conclusion that the best way to expend my creative energies and utilize my skills in community organization, was to put my focus locally and continue thinking gobally. Well, it's proven to be a good move as it has been rather life changing for me. But, as I continue along this path, what I am encountering that gives me cause for disturbance is the empirical fact that my fellow citizens of Fort Smith, AR and the Greater Fort Smith region, are continually demonstrating both an unwillingness and an inability to find a common ground. It seems that regardless of the idea, point of view, opinion, etc., that is put forth by anyone, is instantly met with an opposing point of view(s). On the surface, not necesarily a bad thing. However, even after indepth discussion, there never seems to be a point of mutual agreement reached. Inevitably what happens is that the parties involved in the discussion appear to grow tired of asserting their rightness on the topic at hand and go off looking for fresh meat. The result is that we have this persisting condition of the proverbial dog chasing it's own tail. And as I look out into and engage in my own community and as I look out into the global community, I see see an alarming amount of tail chasing going on.

It's been almost a year sincei I joined the Pickens Plan and despite an incredible push of information and discussion and delieniation of data about the knucleheaded condition of our country being dangerously dependent on foriegn oil and having a reasonable solution to that, here we are, a year later, in the same condition if not worse (except gas prices are not $4 + a gallon) !

What I suspect that has happened that has finally reared its head to bite us on the butt, is that we are a nation, several generations deep, where the bulk of the population has been carefully and intentionally trained and implanted into a factory worker menatlity. The factory worker mentality is a mentality where the self-determinism of the individual has been interrupted on such a magnitude that the individual has been rendered incapable of original thought or wonder and has become a mere pakage of robotic stimulus responses that are incapable of observing the obvious or differentiating between similarities, differences and identities. A factory worker without a factory to work in can be problematic.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Barnard on August 7, 2009 at 12:38pm

Monte:
Sometimes it only takes one person to make a change and hundreds of years to actually see the difference; however, one person can make an immediate change in the world’s condition. There are a few recent individuals that have done just that. I’m not going to mention names; however, I will give you a few hints – Alabama, South Africa and India. There have been hundreds of individuals that have made significant positive changes in the last 6,000 years to our human condition. I’m not going to give you a history lesson because I know you know most. Your last paragraph describing “the factory worker mentality” is correct. Not everyone is capable of “ original thought or wonder”. There have only been a few leaders with original thought and wonder in the last few thousand years and that is all that is needed. The mass of factory workers only need to understand what was given to them by the few to implement change. They don’t need to be the originator. Not everyone is capable of original thought and wonder and that’s OK Monte.

I understand depression. I was diagnosed with service connected PTSD and see a psychiatrist regularly. I haven’t allowed this diagnosis with its related depression to stop me from achieving what some consider a normal existing. It hasn’t stopped me from wanting all the factory workers to live a better life. It hasn’t stopped me from working most of my life trying to better the human condition and it hasn’t destroyed my sensibility of hope. I don’t look for immediate responses from the masses. Yes – I do get upset when people don’t understand what I’m doing or saying but I’ve discovered that most just aren’t capable of understanding. I wonder why and the realization is that they just aren’t. That’s when the sheep mentality of most humans comes into play. All you need is an enlightened few and the rest will follow. That’s the way it’s been for thousands of years and it won’t change. You can draw derogatory implications from this. If the sheep or factory workers follow adversity then it can be negative but they can also follow positive direction. We really don’t have any say in that and it can be depressing. Millions may die and suffer but that’s the way it’s been for thousands of years. Can positive direction be implemented tomorrow? I think it can. That’s what keeps me going.

To get back on topic - what will ultimately be the ideology of the government we inherit? We the few are incapable of determining that. All we can do is try to implement a cohesive ethical and moral path. You can call it anything you like. Most of what’s happening in the world is depressing but don’t let that get in your way. I want to say step up to the plate but I won’t. Damn – I just did. I won’t mention home runs.

Richard

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on August 7, 2009 at 7:00pm

<<I came to the conclusion that the best way to expend my creative energies and utilize my skills in community organization, >>

Monte,

The job has opening has been filled. Unfortunately, the skill set demanded of the oiffice has NOT been satified by the skill set of the office holder.

We need governace ability in the Oval Office, not neighborhood organizing (agitation) skills.

The Deuceman

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Permalink Reply by dan on August 5, 2009 at 7:02pm

I don't know what your talking about. you must be nuts. I change peoples minds all of the tim.

LOL


Just kidding. I too have noticed the Balkanization of discourse. I try and keep my mind open and if people have a compelling argument, I will follow it and if they can present a reasonable case, I even, dare I say, change my personal perspective. Yes that is right, if you have a good argument, you can change my mind. But if my mind is set on a point of view, you can bet I have spent a hell of a lot of time thinking about it and you had better come with a good argument. I don't swim in shallow waters. (It has happened on the pickens site. A Few of what I would consider friends have changed my mind on many issues.)

But to your point, kind sir, I too am becoming more and more bothered by the lack of REAL discussion. It is saddening and you may be right. It could become the end of the country as we know it......

dan

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Permalink Reply by Lou De Frog on September 14, 2009 at 5:48am

Hi Monte.
After much thought about Anach advice I have gone one step further and am building a shallow box from small tubes which can be wrapped in clear vinyl to form a thick panel that can be stuck to a wall or placed on a roof. Lightweight solar collector with thermostat to run a blower to move heated air. As an add on it can be oriented correctly, made larger than a roof. Should have something to test this winter.

We all live with fears and aspirations. My Dad relived his 2WW but we did not have a name for it then. Much easier to be happy when you are doing something for someone else and not thinking about yourself. Hang in there please. The world is reorganizing and we need time to find out where we fit in.

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Permalink Reply by Monte Smith on September 15, 2009 at 8:05pm

No fears Mr. Lou De Frog. I am definitely hanging in there. Not much time to be online spreading my elephant seeds around. I've got a good project going now (have all summer) and I'm busy putting as many nuts away as I can for the winter. The project is exceptionaly monotnous and only requires minimum attention units to perform. Hence, I have kept many of my other attention units very busy pushing out one elephant after another. Be prepared, the time is quickly approaching when the elephant march will begin. :)

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Permalink Reply by DubleDeuce on September 15, 2009 at 5:30pm

<<the bulk of the population has been carefully and intentionally trained and implanted into a factory worker menatlity>>

Gee Monte, I know a LOT of people that would like to get in on that "factory worker mentality" stuff. Problem is...there ain't no more factory work.

Ole' dan will be happy to see that the Supreme Court is FINALLY taking up the issue of "a corporation as person" premise as legislated under the Comerce Clause powers of the U S Constitution. The issue seems to be framed around the relative "power" of a corporation to influence the minds and hearts of the voting public on any given issue by way of the fact that a corporation can bring far larger resources to bear on any given issue/point than can the individual citizen.

BUT! If a corporation is the sum of MANY individuals, customers, employees, stockholders, board members, etc, it stands to reason that a corporation, on balance, is subject to as many diverse and stratified opinions as is any cross section of the public. The FINAL message getting out of corporate America would appear to have the opportunity of being vetted far more intensly and therefore be more attuned to the aggragate of the corporate individuals.

On the other hand, a dollar given to A.C.O.R.N. is almost certainly not going to be subjected to the desires of the average member if that member is not rabid about the cause of the corporation.

I say that the more talk the better. If your mouthpiece is too small (I for one do not suffer this malady) and you feel you need some help, send your money to a PAC or a politically active group and let them say for you what you think needs saying.

BUT! I would advise you of one current political/voice observation, you as a singular American, acting in UNISON, are FAR more powerful and far more convincing to the individual lawmaker than if you were to sign your name to a petition and have it sent forth. The petition is essentially a SINGLE stack of paper pretending to champion a single cause. it is a one time thing. But your individual voice uttered millions of time will put a din in the air that will cause ANY politician to stop and take pause in his legislative pondering. We see it EVERYDAY now. The power of the people to express displeasure and dissapointment with their leaders in Washington is unparraelled in recent times, if ever. One corporation against a million determined, focused, and pissed off marchers has no chance. Bring on the Alpo as main course for dinner. I think we as INFORMED Americans can see our way clear to voice our disaproval. Even if we are unable to afford anything better.

The Deuceman

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Permalink Reply by Monte Smith on September 15, 2009 at 7:57pm

DD,

What you are addressing in your closing paragraph actually fits very well with the subject of this video. I just finished reading the book, Blessed Unrest, by Paul Hawken. It was good. Although, it took me a while to move through it as I had to continually consult the dictionary. It turned out that a portion of Paul's vocabulary is not something I share. As soon as I have an opportunity I will excerpt some content and add it here.

Monte

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Permalink Reply by Lou De Frog on September 18, 2009 at 6:13am

Everybody plays games that they invent for their own or for another's enjoyment.
Everything is a game and everyone, willing or not, is a player.
Everyone either follows rules they make up by themselves or follow rules made by others. These rules determine who wins and who is the loser.

We can make our own rules that make us the winner every time no matter whose game it is.

The rules people invent for the games that they invent are a reflection of their sanity and/or psyche.

Everybody can chose the rules to play the games that they choose - and they can quit if they find that the skill level required exceeds their ability or the rules are stacked against them.

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Permalink Reply by Jeffrey Michael Paganini on September 20, 2009 at 6:55pm

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socialism - 3 dictionary results
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so⋅cial⋅ism  /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
Use socialism in a Sentence
See web results for socialism
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–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Compare utopian socialism.


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Origin:
1830–40; social + -ism
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
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so·cial·ism (sō'shə-lĭz'əm)
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


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Cultural Dictionary

socialism


An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.

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