Waste to Energy

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Comment by Karl Mayr on November 17, 2009 at 8:57am

Hi Waste to Energy Group,

Chemistry was a favorite subject to me, since it fascinates me how the hydrocarbon chains are a wonder of nature.

Our oil field hydrocarbon laboratory was set to where each hydrocarbon formation can be qualitatively and quantitatively analyzized, because the gas chromotography makes a plot of the various hydrocarbons as they pass through the gas separation stratum in the chromotograph.

So, hydrorcarbons from methane (gas) to ethane to propane to butane to pentane are measure per injection of a formation gas, such that each and every hydrocarbon bearing oil well formation has a unique make up.

I hope that my explanation is clear, and may be have some significance in capturing and separating the varous hydrocarbons from any kind of recovery process.

Please comments if you have expereince with hydrocarbon gas chromatography.
Karl from Tularosa

Comment by John Nistler on November 17, 2009 at 8:45am

J. Jay, we are also looking at Methane Digestion and possible electric generation. We have considered stationary hydrogen fuel stations though instead of combustion due to the availability of clean water as a viable by-product. If I can be of any help, please let me know.

Comment by John Nistler on November 17, 2009 at 8:32am

Hello Jeff,
Have considered the biomass conversion to oil, aka, biodiesel as a possible fuel outlet. The point is - unless we do the methane through hydrogen fuel cell electricity generation, we do not have any CO2 for pumping the algae. Not sure the growth would be sufficient to justify the related extraction equipment without the CO2, still have it under consideration, but do to expenditures, it may be more profitable to just sell the methane or methanol.

always open to suggestions and approaches that make it feasible. But that stage of the operation is at least a year down the road. Need to get through the next few months first. :-)

Comment by Dee Miller on November 16, 2009 at 11:23am

To Waste to Energy Group

I haven't been through every message, so I don't know if this information has been given before, but going through Google menu to "More" and then "Scholar" and doing a search on your topic will bring up white papers available - mostly for sale - on that subject. Also, Peswiki seems to have extensive information on whatever you can name organized in a meaningful way.

Comment by J Jay Pirko on November 15, 2009 at 12:40pm

To the Pickens Plan Waste to Energy Group:

I am working on an economic development proposal for the Youngstown, Ohio region, including waste-to-energy technology to increase our local energy production. This proposal includes:
- Waste Water Treatment Plant sludge & effluent bio-digestion into methane & other combustible gasses for electrical turbines.
- Municipal solid waste (garbage) which should be diverted from sanitary landfills and used for bio-digestion into methane & other combustible gasses for electrical turbines.
- Demolition debris (we have a few thousand condemned houses) and other combustible waste (tires, etc) to use for electrical generation.

Any companies working in these fields, technical expertise, or suggestions would be welcome.

- J. Jay Pirko
OH-17th District Group Leader

Comment by JeffM on November 13, 2009 at 1:41pm

John:

I have been working in the wastewater field for many years. On one project we have been de-watering septic sludge and simply take it to the landfill. The effluent is treated in a series of aerated ponds with aerobic and anerobic zones.

I am most interested in using facultative lagoons for production of Bio-diesel from algae. The nutrients and the sun are free, the algae harvest method can be hydraulic with the residual being used to power the plant parasitic losses. The ponds can be designed to produce very high quality effluent, free of nitrogen and phosphorous. I favor biological processes, as that is where I think we will end up, solar-biomass-chemical storage.

Comment by John Nistler on November 13, 2009 at 9:36am

Hello Karl, Robert. Interested in your overall discussion. During the second stage of our converting a rural Texas 3 pond plus irrigation sewage treatment into an alternative energy fuel production plant we are looking at the production of Methane from the trash pond.

From a business perspective we are considering a couple of approaches:

Approach 1 - the production of methanol. Nice price per gallon, less transportation and delivery issues, but as mentioned, technical feasibility might come into question. Have a few good chemists to pull off of, but it is still a question.

Approach two - mix the methane with hydrogen (available from electrolysis - please see other discsussion Waste Water - ....). This could be mixed with natural gas or move through gas pipelines. At point of use, the mixture could be burned or put through a hydrogen fuel cell with front end reformers and scrubbers (available technology from 1972). The idea is if the "natural or made natural gas was rich in hydrogen, more water, electricity and heat would be generated versus volume of gas.

Love to get inputs on these two approaches.

Regards,
John

Comment by Robert Schultz on November 12, 2009 at 9:25am

Received an e-mail from a friend in another group. He is setting up anerobic digesters for processing biomass/manure in Tillamook, OR. Lots of cows, a cheese factory, etc. along the Oregon coast.

Comment by Karl Mayr on November 12, 2009 at 4:38am

Hi Robert Schultz,

Liquid derivatives from methane are more attractive for long haul truckers. Methane is practically impossible to liquify, which requires large compressed gas tanks (to get CNG). City busses cary large gas tanks on the roofs of buses.

Converting methane to methanol sounds like a good alternate for over-the-road trucking.

Back in the 1950's, we lived on propane to operate a motel, service station, restaurant 25 miles west of town, and there was no grid at that time. Large Propane transports with huge Hall Scott engine hauled liquid propane for distribution. We had a 1000 gallon propane tank, and the gas cost about 15 cents a gallon (I now pay 3.15 per gallon).

I was there for all of high school (52 to 56), and we pumped our water with a wind powered machine, (wind mill). We serviced the leather pump gaskets at the bottom of the well (pulling the pump rods).

I became mechanical inclined (like many many others) out of necessity.

Karl from Tularosa

Comment by Robert Schultz on October 30, 2009 at 4:18pm

Karl,
I'm a big sports fan, but I can't afford the tickets. So I do what more people are doing these days, stay home and watch on TV. It's amazing that 50,000 people have the cash to spend on World Series tickets, and are willing to go sit in 40 degree weather for 3+hours to watch it, then battle traffic to get home. Give me a warm house, and a cold beer instead.

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