You should add some aluminum foil flashing to the laterals and the focus platform, this way if the drive freezes the off axis focus won't char and ignite the wood or melt the upright pipes.
For a Flash Boiler consider 0.060 SS instrumentation tubing, do a double conical wind with the hot leg coming straight off the base of the inner cone. Make an enclosing cone from blackened sheet steel, insulate with rock wool and use a 500ml pyrex beaker as a cover for the whole boiler.
I'd use a "Lecture Sphere" and pressurize a bolus of water with Argon (maybe N2 if you have it) if you're planning to run the boiler at or above super critical temperatures & pressures. You can probably get 2 hours from 1 sphere. Think rocket engine, not firetruck :^)
I'm not entirely sure what you'd do with 500W of supercritical steam, cut balsa wood trim, ultrasonic whistle, cappuccino, impulse turbine...
Good afternoon, Steve: Applying the KISS principle seems to be lost in 99% of all postings during the last 12 months. It seems that people want to run “FAST” and seem to assume that by these actions will simply solve their personal heating/cooling and monies spent daily trying to simply keep their dwelling livable.
Twenty-five years ago, 1983, I spent $50 dollars to create an automatic Passive Solar Heating system in my second Mini-storage project located 60 miles south of Canada. This system has generated 98% of the “Hot” air and NO repairs for 25 years.
Simple question follows as to what it would cost to heat a building of 146,300 cubic feet of space to a temperature of 70 degrees year round? Our building’s CUBIC interior space equals “10”, 1800 sq. foot homes.
My average natural gas bill for our project, to operate the gas furnace, WHEN NEEDED, is $1.00 a day. Now you take “10” homes and it might cost “Ten CENTS” per day to heat your home each day. The above facts are real, BUT not a single individual has even asked “How to Install” my simple system into their business or home.
I have posted the complete system parts, costs and where to purchase pieces today to create the above system. GUESS what has happened? In the last 10 months, NOT one single response or “Hey IT WORKS” or “It is impossible?”
The lack of any interest or questions clearly indicates the general population could care less what it costs to pay the monthly heating or cooling expense.
GOOD LUCK TRYING TO INTEREST INDIVIDUALS TO SPEND $10,000 DOLLARS FOR A SIMPLE “FLASH BOILER SYSTEM” AND HEAT THEIR DWELLING.
I WISH YOUR GROUP THE BEST. ANACHRONISM
Happy New Year Steve,
Last year I helped so many members of Pickens Plan learn about personal home energy plans. It's all about conservation of power, and home power generation, things I have been doing at my residence to lower my electricity costs. Send me a friend request a to add me Steve, I'd be honored to have you as a friend here.
BTW, Texas: I just posted an article link on my pickens page about Home Wind Systems in Texas. Your state's representatives, governor, and public utility commission officials are not in your corner with this "weak policy" on Net Metering. Instead they have the tables turned against green power for businesses and homeowners. Texas has created multiple sets of rules for loopholes and you have less rights than people in other states. You should read that article, important.
Steve,
Hello, my name is Jimmy Horn and I am part of the TX-26 group. We have a small but growing group organizing out of ‘Congressional District TX-26’, which includes Denton County, some parts of Lewisville, Flower Mound and that area.
We would be interested in you joining ‘Pickens Plan District Group TX-26’ and help support us in organizing our efforts in the Denton/Lewisville area. We do not require any time, work or money unless you decide you’d like to help with the effort, and then that is up to you on how much or little you’d like to do.
Please let me know if you have any questions or comments for me about TX-26 or anything else. We look forward to getting to know you and exchanging ideas with you.
Our second meeting is Jan 6th, if you’d like to meet some of the members and get a better feel of the group.
Hey, Steve,
You have the right kinds of ideas.
Compressed air would be a real good alternative for storage to run a steam engine, but steam engines do not put out the same power with compressed air as with steam, because you do not have the 1700 to 1 expansion ratio of steam with compressed air.
Also, I am afraid that most of the time you will not have enough torque to pull both the alternator and the compressor. In the morning and evening hours when the solar radiation is traveling sideways thru many more miles of our atmosphere, the intensity arriving at your lens is not as great. So, the compressor would need to be automatically disengaged to allow earliest possible starting, and latest possible decline of the electrical generation. The compressor would need to be controlled automatically to engage with a torque converter speeding up CFM’s as torque increases with the intensity of the midday sun.
If you are dead set on using a normal steam engine for power, compressed air would probably be the best alternative, tho’ it would be a very complex and expensive system to manufacture, with a much longer pay-off time.
However, if you have not acquired an engine yet, I would like to provide this alternative:
Heating the smallest necessary amount of water at any one time, spreading 212° water out as thinly as possible on the heat exchanger surface for the quickest heat transfer, condensing that same resultant steam back to only 212° water to reheat it again, avoiding any undue heat loss, and accomplishing all that with the least amount of power expended are definitely the keys to efficiency of the steam generation part of the equation.
The employment of a piston-type engine is essential to achieve greatest efficiency in the steam power conversion side of the equation. Turbines and other rotaries are too thermally inefficient.
A variable speed generator is imperative for this application, as you have no control over the intensity of the sun, and weight is not a limiting factor in a stationary application, so a permanent magnet DC generator would be simplest and best.
DC current is easily stored in batteries, or as Hydrogen gas. I do not know why you do not want to use batteries, but I would suggest this would be a perfect application for Edison batteries. An off-the-shelf inverter can be employed to provide AC, if needed.
I, personally, prefer converting our households to a 120 VDC system. It is safer and more dependable than AC, and works perfectly well and interchangeably in lighting, heating, brush-type motors and radio frequency generation applications.
The simplicity and cost of manufacturing the steam generator, condenser, steam engine, and electrical generator will ultimately be the determining factor as to the affordability, and thus the potential marketability, of the system.
I have a steam engine with a boiler and condenser integral to the design - the Eden Phase Change Heat Cycle Engine, which I believe is the perfect solution for your application. Using this engine, it would be necessary to add a parabolic mirror at the focal point of the lens, as it is necessary that the heat source enter from the bottom.
This engine is extremely safe, simple and cheap to manufacture. Its only drawback is it is limited to low-speeds, which is perfect for your application.
I would be happy to build one for you, if you wish, but you will have to let me know what your intentions are for the future of your development.
If you wish to keep the development only for yourself, I would have to charge full retail price for the engine, or genset, if that is what you want to order. Just tell me what power type and capacity you want, and I would be happy to provide a price for you.
If you intend to market the development, I would give you an OEM price, or enter into some form of partnership with you, but, either way, we would need to enter into some form of contractual obligation. Or for $1000 you could join as a Director of Eden Wind Development LLC, and we could market it thru this company.
I am really excited about your work, as the world really needs such a system.
Likewise, the world needs this type of power system to run an ice-bank refrigerator for food and medicine storage in remote and third-world applications.
Let me know what you think.
Larry M. Aden, Exec. Dir., Eden Wind
Hi PP member,
Please checkout this website, as this is a Sun, Heat and Wind energy system in one, please give us your feedback as we try to improve it.
www.solarbotanic.com
Looking forward to hear from you
Alex
At 5:55pm on September 25, 2008, Steve Morriss said…
Thanks Pete, I understand.
I'm not out to build a commercial energy production plant.
My quest is for Personal Energy Independence. All I want to produce is 7Kw to drive my house at peak usage. I believe I can make it with a solar furnace that tracks the sun and a steam engine.
Mobility is important too. Once I have this built, it goes with me.
No one will repay me for it when I sell this house in a couple of years. All solar systems are like swimming pools. You better get your value out of it while you live there, cause you will never get your money back.
At 2:49pm on September 25, 2008, Pete Floege said…
also metane should be methane
At 2:48pm on September 25, 2008, Pete Floege said…
that should be mobile array.
At 2:47pm on September 25, 2008, Pete Floege said…
Hy steve,
What I've got is a plan that includes a mibile solar reflective array focused on a solar furnace/boiler tomake steam to generate electricity thru standard hy efficiency turbine generators.this is a large megawatt plant and would cost approx 10 mil to put in place.I've looked at smaller applications but the cost seems prohibitive.On a large scale along with metane generation for dark hours this is a system with low operating costs and great cash flow potential.that is as far as I've gotten,don't have the moolah.
I'm only posturing long enough to land the next hard-corps job. When I did this sort of stuff before the industry did not project a widespread future for careers in this field. Now that paradigm has changed, so I come full circle- back to Electricity from Electronics. Like you I'm from the era of early Cold War duck & cover, and fortunatly got that good hard-science foundation. If you found my resume'(easily found online), what it does not mention is my Journeyman Electrical liscense. I should break down & get my Master Electrician.
With all of this brainstorming going on though, I know we'll be prepared for all eventualities,and take these Eureka moments to market.
Both political parties are talking about a new enhancement of the energy industry to the tune of EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS in employment, manufacture & enterpreneurial explosion.
You are already in a position to harvest a fair share of that, and I am not far behind you. Each with our own vital skill sets.
I've been reading your chats with Paul. You two should go into business together. You don't have to agree all the time, and seem to have a lot of knowledge,and yet compliment each others stregnths & weaknesses.
I can follow the math, and physics, but would like more practical hands on experience. Hiring engineers or techs?
Thanks for the feedback! I hope you could clarify a small part of your statement. You said: Where I have a problem is the cost of $3/watt to install. But that seems to be because you have a short time horizon. The systems I'm proposing are commercial, for big-box stores, warehouses, schools, etc... Probably live there for 20-30-50 years or more. Resale value is less of an issue than energy savings, and transporting a system is a non-issue.
FYI: There's a big in-water boat show in Norwalk each fall (next weekend I think). Last year I saw a diesel fuel fired marine generator that uses an axial piston Sterling -- the price was $23.75/W(e) -- but is did provide hot water for the boat too ;^)
Nice analysis if the 100 acre solar project. It was simple concise and to the point. (There are even more terms in the full blown analysis, but you hit the major points)
What do you think of my claim that I can harness 100kW of electricity per acre of land for an 8 hr day? I'd appreciate a quick-n-dirty 'from the hip analysis' from a guy that doesn't know me or my product...
Steve Morriss's Comments
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You should add some aluminum foil flashing to the laterals and the focus platform, this way if the drive freezes the off axis focus won't char and ignite the wood or melt the upright pipes.
For a Flash Boiler consider 0.060 SS instrumentation tubing, do a double conical wind with the hot leg coming straight off the base of the inner cone. Make an enclosing cone from blackened sheet steel, insulate with rock wool and use a 500ml pyrex beaker as a cover for the whole boiler.
I'd use a "Lecture Sphere" and pressurize a bolus of water with Argon (maybe N2 if you have it) if you're planning to run the boiler at or above super critical temperatures & pressures. You can probably get 2 hours from 1 sphere. Think rocket engine, not firetruck :^)
I'm not entirely sure what you'd do with 500W of supercritical steam, cut balsa wood trim, ultrasonic whistle, cappuccino, impulse turbine...
Good afternoon, Steve: Applying the KISS principle seems to be lost in 99% of all postings during the last 12 months. It seems that people want to run “FAST” and seem to assume that by these actions will simply solve their personal heating/cooling and monies spent daily trying to simply keep their dwelling livable.
Twenty-five years ago, 1983, I spent $50 dollars to create an automatic Passive Solar Heating system in my second Mini-storage project located 60 miles south of Canada. This system has generated 98% of the “Hot” air and NO repairs for 25 years.
Simple question follows as to what it would cost to heat a building of 146,300 cubic feet of space to a temperature of 70 degrees year round? Our building’s CUBIC interior space equals “10”, 1800 sq. foot homes.
My average natural gas bill for our project, to operate the gas furnace, WHEN NEEDED, is $1.00 a day. Now you take “10” homes and it might cost “Ten CENTS” per day to heat your home each day. The above facts are real, BUT not a single individual has even asked “How to Install” my simple system into their business or home.
I have posted the complete system parts, costs and where to purchase pieces today to create the above system. GUESS what has happened? In the last 10 months, NOT one single response or “Hey IT WORKS” or “It is impossible?”
The lack of any interest or questions clearly indicates the general population could care less what it costs to pay the monthly heating or cooling expense.
GOOD LUCK TRYING TO INTEREST INDIVIDUALS TO SPEND $10,000 DOLLARS FOR A SIMPLE “FLASH BOILER SYSTEM” AND HEAT THEIR DWELLING.
I WISH YOUR GROUP THE BEST. ANACHRONISM
Happy New Year Steve,
Last year I helped so many members of Pickens Plan learn about personal home energy plans. It's all about conservation of power, and home power generation, things I have been doing at my residence to lower my electricity costs. Send me a friend request a to add me Steve, I'd be honored to have you as a friend here.
BTW, Texas: I just posted an article link on my pickens page about Home Wind Systems in Texas. Your state's representatives, governor, and public utility commission officials are not in your corner with this "weak policy" on Net Metering. Instead they have the tables turned against green power for businesses and homeowners. Texas has created multiple sets of rules for loopholes and you have less rights than people in other states. You should read that article, important.
Hello, my name is Jimmy Horn and I am part of the TX-26 group. We have a small but growing group organizing out of ‘Congressional District TX-26’, which includes Denton County, some parts of Lewisville, Flower Mound and that area.
We would be interested in you joining ‘Pickens Plan District Group TX-26’ and help support us in organizing our efforts in the Denton/Lewisville area. We do not require any time, work or money unless you decide you’d like to help with the effort, and then that is up to you on how much or little you’d like to do.
Please let me know if you have any questions or comments for me about TX-26 or anything else. We look forward to getting to know you and exchanging ideas with you.
Our second meeting is Jan 6th, if you’d like to meet some of the members and get a better feel of the group.
Thanks,
Jimmy Horn
Co-Lead TX-26
You have the right kinds of ideas.
Compressed air would be a real good alternative for storage to run a steam engine, but steam engines do not put out the same power with compressed air as with steam, because you do not have the 1700 to 1 expansion ratio of steam with compressed air.
Also, I am afraid that most of the time you will not have enough torque to pull both the alternator and the compressor. In the morning and evening hours when the solar radiation is traveling sideways thru many more miles of our atmosphere, the intensity arriving at your lens is not as great. So, the compressor would need to be automatically disengaged to allow earliest possible starting, and latest possible decline of the electrical generation. The compressor would need to be controlled automatically to engage with a torque converter speeding up CFM’s as torque increases with the intensity of the midday sun.
If you are dead set on using a normal steam engine for power, compressed air would probably be the best alternative, tho’ it would be a very complex and expensive system to manufacture, with a much longer pay-off time.
However, if you have not acquired an engine yet, I would like to provide this alternative:
Heating the smallest necessary amount of water at any one time, spreading 212° water out as thinly as possible on the heat exchanger surface for the quickest heat transfer, condensing that same resultant steam back to only 212° water to reheat it again, avoiding any undue heat loss, and accomplishing all that with the least amount of power expended are definitely the keys to efficiency of the steam generation part of the equation.
The employment of a piston-type engine is essential to achieve greatest efficiency in the steam power conversion side of the equation. Turbines and other rotaries are too thermally inefficient.
A variable speed generator is imperative for this application, as you have no control over the intensity of the sun, and weight is not a limiting factor in a stationary application, so a permanent magnet DC generator would be simplest and best.
DC current is easily stored in batteries, or as Hydrogen gas. I do not know why you do not want to use batteries, but I would suggest this would be a perfect application for Edison batteries. An off-the-shelf inverter can be employed to provide AC, if needed.
I, personally, prefer converting our households to a 120 VDC system. It is safer and more dependable than AC, and works perfectly well and interchangeably in lighting, heating, brush-type motors and radio frequency generation applications.
The simplicity and cost of manufacturing the steam generator, condenser, steam engine, and electrical generator will ultimately be the determining factor as to the affordability, and thus the potential marketability, of the system.
I have a steam engine with a boiler and condenser integral to the design - the Eden Phase Change Heat Cycle Engine, which I believe is the perfect solution for your application. Using this engine, it would be necessary to add a parabolic mirror at the focal point of the lens, as it is necessary that the heat source enter from the bottom.
This engine is extremely safe, simple and cheap to manufacture. Its only drawback is it is limited to low-speeds, which is perfect for your application.
I would be happy to build one for you, if you wish, but you will have to let me know what your intentions are for the future of your development.
If you wish to keep the development only for yourself, I would have to charge full retail price for the engine, or genset, if that is what you want to order. Just tell me what power type and capacity you want, and I would be happy to provide a price for you.
If you intend to market the development, I would give you an OEM price, or enter into some form of partnership with you, but, either way, we would need to enter into some form of contractual obligation. Or for $1000 you could join as a Director of Eden Wind Development LLC, and we could market it thru this company.
I am really excited about your work, as the world really needs such a system.
Likewise, the world needs this type of power system to run an ice-bank refrigerator for food and medicine storage in remote and third-world applications.
Let me know what you think.
Larry M. Aden, Exec. Dir., Eden Wind
Please checkout this website, as this is a Sun, Heat and Wind energy system in one, please give us your feedback as we try to improve it.
www.solarbotanic.com
Looking forward to hear from you
Alex
I'm not out to build a commercial energy production plant.
My quest is for Personal Energy Independence. All I want to produce is 7Kw to drive my house at peak usage. I believe I can make it with a solar furnace that tracks the sun and a steam engine.
Mobility is important too. Once I have this built, it goes with me.
No one will repay me for it when I sell this house in a couple of years. All solar systems are like swimming pools. You better get your value out of it while you live there, cause you will never get your money back.
What I've got is a plan that includes a mibile solar reflective array focused on a solar furnace/boiler tomake steam to generate electricity thru standard hy efficiency turbine generators.this is a large megawatt plant and would cost approx 10 mil to put in place.I've looked at smaller applications but the cost seems prohibitive.On a large scale along with metane generation for dark hours this is a system with low operating costs and great cash flow potential.that is as far as I've gotten,don't have the moolah.
With all of this brainstorming going on though, I know we'll be prepared for all eventualities,and take these Eureka moments to market.
Both political parties are talking about a new enhancement of the energy industry to the tune of EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS in employment, manufacture & enterpreneurial explosion.
You are already in a position to harvest a fair share of that, and I am not far behind you. Each with our own vital skill sets.
I can follow the math, and physics, but would like more practical hands on experience. Hiring engineers or techs?
Thanks for the feedback! I hope you could clarify a small part of your statement. You said:
Where I have a problem is the cost of $3/watt to install. But that seems to be because you have a short time horizon. The systems I'm proposing are commercial, for big-box stores, warehouses, schools, etc... Probably live there for 20-30-50 years or more. Resale value is less of an issue than energy savings, and transporting a system is a non-issue.
FYI: There's a big in-water boat show in Norwalk each fall (next weekend I think). Last year I saw a diesel fuel fired marine generator that uses an axial piston Sterling -- the price was $23.75/W(e) -- but is did provide hot water for the boat too ;^)
Nice analysis if the 100 acre solar project. It was simple concise and to the point. (There are even more terms in the full blown analysis, but you hit the major points)
What do you think of my claim that I can harness 100kW of electricity per acre of land for an 8 hr day? I'd appreciate a quick-n-dirty 'from the hip analysis' from a guy that doesn't know me or my product...
Thanks in advance.
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